Lehigh/Bucknell/Holy Cross/Nova/Wake vs St. Andrews/UK Schools

[Twoin18]

@NiceUnparticularMan

Anyway, his impression was ultimately that in some notable ways St Andrews was “closer” to the sort of US undergrad experience he was looking for. But to be fair, in the end he decided not close enough. Still, I think there are plausible scenarios in which he fell in love with St Andrews and went there despite never even applying to Oxbridge.

But to the best of my recollection your kid didn’t get offered a large scholarship by St Andrews. And he ended up with plenty of good options in the US, with money not being a deciding factor for you.

@hoopsdad2000

The spirit of the thread (through the lens of our experience with UK schools) was for students in that space between Top 50 SLACs and the crapshoot of T20 schools, there’s a lot more opportunities out there literally in the world than you may think.

There are plenty of full pay US students who aren’t likely to get into T20 schools. Few of those would be likely to get into Oxbridge either (unless they were exceptionally gifted academically but didn’t bother with any ECs). The question is how many of those potential applicants are sufficiently strong academically that they would get a large enough scholarship from St Andrews to make a decisive difference to the cost comparison?

The UK is cheaper than full pay at top US privates. And finding out early is nice. Its a good backup for a lot of US applicants. But as @blossom points out, all too often when a student goes there, that choice is made because there aren’t any attractive US options which are perceived to have comparable prestige, regardless of price. And that can backfire.

(FWIW I went to Cambridge. My S would have gone to Oxford if he’d got in. He filled in the rest of the slots on his UCAS list and liked having other UK admissions in fall of senior year as a backup in case all went wrong with his US applications. But when he ended up with desirable US options, the UK was never under serious consideration. Conversely our neighbors’ kid went to St Andrews precisely because of the lack of attractive US admissions, and its been pretty disastrous, with failed exams, an extra year, mental health challenges, etc.)

[NiceUnparticularMan]

Yes, I was only offering him as an example of someone who could prefer St Andrews to Oxbridge.

[hoopsdad2000]

@Twoin18 I’m so sorry to hear about your neighbor’s son. That’s just awful and i wouldn’t wish that on anyone. Always unfortunate to have an academic struggle like that. Obviously, though, every school’s freshman’s class has a handful of students not ready for the collegiate experience.

Without getting into specifics, DD was only supposed to be there for a year, but she absolutely fell in love with the environment, her professors, two dozen friends, the events, the travel (even on a nominal budget.) She made the hardest decision of her life this summer to remain there, passing up a superior U.S. option in terms of “prestige” (which actually wasn’t that much more expensive.) DD didn’t want the American Greek life campus, or the SLAC lifestyle where you see the same people every day, or even to deal with the 2024 campus environment (none of us can predict what that’s going to look like.) She has her choices just like our youngest one, who’s dealing with the process now and just wants to go to a “College Game Day” school, as he calls it.

@blossom brings up insightful questions for every parent to discuss with their child whether they are considering sending them overseas or to L.A., Boulder, Colorado, Miami, etc. BTW, if a kid gets caught with a package of narcotics that appears to be distributable in Omaha, either Portland or Walla Walla, Wash, it’s not going to be a picnic here, either.

I always found CC to be a place where, yes, we remind each other of smart questions about their DC ahead of sending them anywhere, but also remind successful academic students about ALL of their academic options. Let the family of an academically accomplished student spend the $20-25 on the UCAS, get some admission wins under their belt and then figure out what’s right or not right. Of course, kids with “issues” or basic anxiety shouldn’t be sent to Europe, just like they probably shouldn’t be sent 1000 miles away across the country. And also, not every kid at STA is heading to the Canary Islands for “Reading Week.” Some are, and some go back to London, or someone has a house in Troon or Arran and invites everyone down. The price of a flight from Edinburgh to Paris is about the same as a spring break trip to Daytona from the Northeast.

Also, what’s the difference between a kid blowing up at Wisconsin-Madison in a single semester vs the UK school example? 3 credits? 6? Still none?

In the end, these are all great questions to ask. DD’s time there has been one of minimal social drama, amazing academics, exciting travel (on a budget), something to do every night, numerous friend groups. That experience is out there for the highly successful, “average excellent” American student who doesn’t want to pay full boat at Colgate or is frustrated that they only got into Grinnell.

[Twoin18]

@hoopsdad2000

Also, what’s the difference between a kid blowing up at Wisconsin-Madison in a single semester vs the UK school example? 3 credits? 6? Still none?

We’ve definitely seen kids (and not just boys, although that’s more common) have problems at a wide range of different schools (the pandemic certainly didn’t help in that regard). The further away they are from home, the more difficult it can be for parents to help. And the UK’s end of year exam-based format means you may not find out anything is wrong until July after freshman year when it may be too late in the day to transfer without a gap year. You may also have to repeat an entire year, not just one class.

The US system generally has more flexibility to take a semester off, or transfer to another institution, and the credits you’ve accumulated tend to be recognized and useful elsewhere. The kid we know who had a crisis in freshman year at Berkeley handled it much more smoothly (with a semester off to reset) than the kid who was at St Andrews. Being close to home helped, but the fact they were in a familiar US system helped more.

[NiceUnparticularMan]

Yeah, I would not advise considering this in the abstract. I do think if a kid and parent are confident about the strength of their answers to blossom’s first three questions, then the risk of having to transfer back could be down to a tolerable level. But if instead their answers to one or more of those three questions are not strong, then I would tend to agree sticking to a college much closer to home, with an academic format for which the student has been consciously prepared by their high school, and much more institutional “scaffolding” for struggling students, is probably a better idea.

I guess the only thing I would emphasize is that while a more familiar format and more institutional scaffolding might help, I do think some kids just are not ready to be far from home and parents. Indeed, I think it is not uncommon for some kids to benefit from just knowing they are close to home/parents, even if they end up not needing that proximity often in practice. So for some kids, the right answer would not be just any US college, but one close to home.

But for sure, going to a UK college is going to be a bigger leap from home in various ways than any US college. So kids and parents should carefully evaluate whether they feel confident they are ready for that big of a leap.

[Bruno99]

I have mixed feelings on this. I have a niece and nephew who recently graduated from St. Andrews and a niece who is currently there’s and a nephew currently applying. The two recent grads had very different experiences and both loved it. One specifically chose St. Andrews for a unique, overseas experience and for the other it was a a backup plan when they didn’t get in to T30 schools. From my brother and sister who have paid for college in both the US and at St. Andrews they say it is definitely less expensive at St. Andrews. But, both kids who recently graduated have struggled with job placement now that they are back in the US. Of course that can happen anywhere but it does make me wonder if being overseas ends up being a bit of a disadvantage when it comes time to find a job after college. YMMV.

[Twoin18]

Yes, as noted by @NiceUnparticularMan it is possible to use the 2 year working visa to get a job and stay in the U.K. after college. But salaries in the U.K. are very low for most jobs outside finance (even CS and engineering pay isn’t great outside a few top Silicon Valley type firms). A couple of years out of college my S earns almost double what he would do in a similar (consulting) job in the U.K. (although he also bills about 30% more hours). So the standard of living may not be too much better than as a student, at least from a financial perspective. Though long holidays and shorter hours can be nice…

[NiceUnparticularMan]

Yeah, when we talked about this (and I note again S24 ultimately decided against attending St Andrews), we discussed how an entry level job in the UK would likely pay a lot less than an equivalent job in the US. If it was just a temporary thing before a US grad degree or other move back to the US, that is maybe not so bad. But there is a reason a lot of professionals would like to work in the US if they can–the compensation can end up a lot better.

[BoroDad]

So, there is another factor. Full disclosure. I’m a Bucknell Alum and a former alumni on-campus company recruiter at the school for a large, very well known Pharma company.

When I showed up to interview the students, I was often sitting in the lobby with reps from firms like Morgan Stanley and IBM. So you had 3 of the Dow30 recruiting in any given day. And both my company and IBM had relationships with certain departments and sponsored programs.

Depending on where you want to work that can really matter.

[OregonDad24]

Totally FWIW, since my experience is 30 years ago. I started at Middlebury, then spent junior year at Queens’ University, Belfast, where I decided to stay to complete my degree. (Following, did masters at Cambridge then Phd at LSE, but those are different stories.)

Personally I wouldn’t go to the UK for money reasons. Big picture (meaning, career-long, etc) it’s not that huge, since overseas tuition has increased since I was there.

Still, I’d recommend looking at UK schools for several reasons.

1. Admissions are simpler. They more or less tell you what AP exam scores (not class grades you need). If you get them, you’ll probably get in. There’s a personal statement, but it’s about how you’re qualified to succeed in your major, not all the other stuff people sweat over. No legacy/athletic admissions, and even affirmative action is on a simpler basis (some preference for kids from low-income postal codes, similar to how US schools are now using the Landscape Score), but not all the convoluted stuff.

2. It’s a focused three year course, at least outside of Scotland (where it’s 4). If you’re interested in further study, you come out ready to rock. I got from starting a BA to finishing a PhD in 7 years, and could have done it in 6 if I hadn’t moved from Cambridge to London post-Masters. Yes, you need to know what you want to do beforehand, but UK students can manage that.

3. It’s a great experience to grow up and meet people from around the world. You’re not going home at the weekends to have your mom do your laundry. You’re basically independent, which I think is good (it help my parental relationship a lot!). And our group going out at night would be amazingly diverse, and so much fun.

You do want to think of the US reputation of the UK school. Queens’ Belfast may not have helped me much vs Middlebury, although I don’t think it hurt me – there’s a novelty factor. But I wouldn’t just go to any UK school – worth giving some extra attention to.