Lehigh/Bucknell/Holy Cross/Nova/Wake vs St. Andrews/UK Schools

Parents Forum
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I know many rising seniors and their families are about to begin the application process. Some have spent the summer visiting colleges and universities and some have already filled their Columbus Day weekend dance card with hotel resis and campus tours booked for the weekend.

For those considering private schools like Lehigh, Lafayette, Holy Cross, Villanova, Wake Forest, Washington & Lee and others of that academic level and, honestly, FP price point, I really think that you need to consider the UK schools, most of which are much less expensive, which is the point of this thread. I know, even considering flights and visits, it’s still less expensive and, really, about the same if you’re living on the West Coast considering sending your kids to schools across the country.

We’ve spent a lot of time looking at schools across the United Kingdom. They are incredible places for higher learning. DC is having the time of her life in St. Andrews, so much that she forfeited some nice opportunities to come back. It’s an incredible environment. Strong academic rigor, numerous clubs and societies, amazing social events, small enough college community to not be overwhelming but big enough that you don’t see the same five coeds every day, not to mention the opportunities to visit parts of Western Europe inexpensively. And also, there’s a good number of Americans there, not too many that it feels like an annex, but just enough to add nominal familiarity. Most of these American kids overseas are the same ones who got into Lehigh, Emory, Chapel Hill, W&M, Virginia, even some Ivies.

The pushback has always been concerns about the “post-grad network.” Of course, we hope that our children have an amazing college experience but realistically, job availability needs to be a consideration. Here’s the thing about St. Andrews. The university is beginning to strengthen their business school. Top investment banks and consulting firms based in London as well the U.S. are now attending the career fairs. I believe that the business world exit opportunities for STA grads in four years will be exponentially better than they are today.

Schools like Villanova (especially the business school) are very pre-professional and Lafayette has a stronger network than it’s given credit for. My greater point is that I want every student who has been grinding for three years to have relatively inexpensive “options.” The families that are applying to JUST Wake, or JUST VILLANOVA alongside a bunch of ivies are still out there. I hate hearing stories at BBQs of moms/dads half-complaining, “Yeah, he got into Lehigh but that was it. $80k a year, here we come!!”

My most important point here is the spirit of what so many of us say. Have options, especially if you find yourself in the full pay bucket. Even if you decide that you don’t want your child overseas or DC wants to stay “close to home,” at least do the research and consider what else is available. It costs less than $30 to knock out a UCAS application and apply for schools in Western Europe.

Paying $70,000 a year for college is a lot….if you don’t have to. Just be completely aware of the total landscape before hitting SEND on that final app this season.

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I don’t think that’s the only pushback. The other question is whether your kid is sufficiently self-motivated and self-reliant (no one cares if you skip all the lectures and go to the pub every night) and if they will thrive in a format that gives much higher weight to self-study and high stakes exams (in a country where kids have grown up taking huge numbers of those kinds of exams and in many cases has lower admissions standards for high paying Americans than for domestic students).

There’s a personality that will work for. There’s also a type of kid that it won’t work for.

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My S24 applied to St Andrews as one of his “Likelies”, and we got as far as visiting before he decided to go a different direction (not because the visit was bad, he happened to get into some other colleges during the visit and decided those were more what he was looking for). And even though he did decide otherwise, I would still also recommend US kids at least consider it, and possibly apply.

Indeed, among the pros are that if you apply on the early side, you will likely get a decision relatively early, as they kinda-sorta do rolling admissions. And for US applicants they like, they usually do unconditional offers. Hence why my S24 had that offer in hand while still waiting to hear from other colleges.

In terms of why my S24 decided to go another way, it basically came down to him wanting a more exploratory model where he was not admitted to a specific course (in his case it was Biology at St Andrews) and would have a lot of time to decide on his major. I don’t think he was otherwise worried about professional paths, the evaluation structure, or most of the social aspects (although I do think he saw some appeal in going to a US school where his high school friends might periodically visit).

But of course each kid will be different. I am just glad he had such a different option to consider.

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I have been working in corporate recruiting for over three decades and have been hearing this exact statement for at least 25 years. Exponentially better is a pretty big number.

It is hard (not impossible, but hard) for an American student living overseas to coordinate academic calendars, internship dates, travel, etc. to jive with US employers. A kid with dual UK/American citizenship? Easier, because starting off in a company’s UK operation is much less of a hassle.

This has nothing to do with St. Andrews academic reputation (which is solid among US employers) and everything to do with logistics.

Kids should understand this before deciding they are heading overseas. The top investment banks based in London are not recruiting at STA for kids to work in their US operations btw…they recruit at US based universities for that!

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I note my understanding is the UK provides an automatic two-year work visa for graduates of UK universities. That was the tentative plan for my S24 when he was looking at St Andrews–either come back to the US for some sort of grad or professional degree, or possibly try out working in the UK first, if only for the experience.

I do think if the plan is to come back immediately for work in the US, that is a little more problematic (again not impossible, just harder). I think if he had been focused on that, he might have been more interested in the William & Mary/St Andrews joint program.

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Very fair point about the self-reliance. That said, there are a fair amount of academic self-starters who may not be completely aware of the European option. It can’t hurt to incorporate a UCAS application into their college apps “portfolio.”

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Yes but that’s not what I think of when it comes to SLAC applicants who often want close relationships with professors. Termtime or even summer research jobs are very unusual in the U.K.

SLACs are also more likely to be test optional, and the UK would be a terrible choice if you don’t love high stakes testing.

Except for their disinterest in competitive sports, UK universities are much more like state flagships and if a student feels they’d be poorly suited to the lack of handholding at say UVA or UCB then they may not be suited to the U.K. either.

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But St Andrews doesn’t offer any need-based aid right? With need-based aid, those colleges in the US end up cheaper. I wish that St Andrews was on par -but I don’t think it is. (Because who WOULDN’T want to go to Scotland (!!!) for college.

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As long as we are on the topic of Western European options, a good one to consider is Dutch “University Colleges.” The Netherlands has been investing in creating domestic schools in the SLAC model. They are created as divisions of existing universities, but they are their own entity. Tuition for foreign students is usually around 20,000 Euros (so just a tad bit over than that in dollars). The best part is, curriculum at most of them is 100% in English. Amsterdam University College, Leiden University College (in The Hague), Utrecht University College, Maastricht University College, Erasmus University College, University College Groningen etc. I think there may be a couple that are in Dutch, but the majority are in English, you don’t need to speak Dutch to attend. So that is a great option in Western Europe for someone who is open to that geographically and wants the SLAC approach rather than the more standard European approach of being admitted to a program of study and focusing on that from the get-go.

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They actually do offer aid to certain students. Do they offer “free rides,” no, but there are American students walking around campus with 50% discounted tuition.

And also, to be clear, my post is focused on full pay students. There’s still a lot of them out there.

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At current exchange rates, St Andrews for fees and catered ensuite housing was going to run us up to around $55000, plus travel and such.

The way we saw it, that was a reasonably competitive “out of state” cost, and significantly less than full pay private. But obviously in-state, some OOS, or private with a lot of need+merit aid could beat that.

They do also have some scholarships but I would not describe those as robust programs.

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Seems like the summary is that UK universities have the following characteristics:

  • Student must be self-motivated and manage their own time with no supervision or hand holding.
  • Grading is based only on the final exam.
  • Student must choose a major earlier (on application), and changing major is limited.

Based on the above, it would seem like there is a continuum on the above aspects:

  • US high schools (highly supervised with lots of hand holding, lots of smaller graded works, make-up, and extra credit, can remain in a more general path).
  • … (big gap)
  • US residential liberal arts colleges.
  • US residential private universities.
  • US state universities.
  • … (significant gap)
  • UK universities.
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If you can get Villanova tuition at $30k/yr, God bless you. If you can get the $15k/yr deal at Washington & Lee (which is out there) and you don’t mind going to a school with under 2500 students, of course that deals out there. I’m just addressing the folks who are paying full boat for the likes of Villanova, Wake and Lehigh, that this is worth a really long look.

And for some elite American students, there can be some $$$.

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But for truly “elite” American students who are full pay and want to go to the U.K., why would they pick St Andrews, even with money off, over Oxbridge? What you are describing is a category of people who are good enough to get a meaningful discount elsewhere in the U.K. (not just a few thousand pounds which is fairly common) but not good enough to get into Oxbridge and I suspect that’s quite limited.

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That seems right to me although I think at the margins there are US public programs and UK programs that are getting pretty close. Speaking of which:

I can’t answer for every student but my S24 decided to scratch Oxbridge due to a combination of a lot more onerous application process plus the fact they are usually only three-year programs that leave even less room for exploration than the four-year Scottish equivalents.

St Andrews also has a far higher percentage of US students–it was something like 20% in the stats we saw, 2% at Oxford, less than 1% at Cambridge. St Andrews is also smaller, but even in gross terms I think there were over 6 times as many US students as Oxford, 16 times as Cambridge.

Obviously that could be a pro or con, or a matter of indifference, but I think my S24 felt some comfort in the fact that there would be a decent population of other US kids, and for that matter likely a decent population of US alums. In fact I forget the exact details, but I think we figured out St Andrews typically had more US students than Haverford (the smallest college on his list, but still).

Finally, it felt to him (and me) like St Andrews was sort of the Dartmouth of the UK in the sense that although it was a research university, it was at least more undergraduate focused than most. A lot contributed to that impression, but there is also just a raw numbers thing. So, like, I think something like 80% of St Andrews students were undergrads. Cambridge was just over 50%, and Oxford was just under 50%.

Anyway, his impression was ultimately that in some notable ways St Andrews was “closer” to the sort of US undergrad experience he was looking for. But to be fair, in the end he decided not close enough. Still, I think there are plausible scenarios in which he fell in love with St Andrews and went there despite never even applying to Oxbridge.

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First of all, the scholarships there can be more than a few thousand pounds, but that’s not the broader point.

The spirit of the thread (through the lens of our experience with UK schools) was for students in that space between Top 50 SLACs and the crapshoot of T20 schools, there’s a lot more opportunities out there literally in the world than you may think.

Also, I referenced the UCAS application, which is not exclusive to St. Andrews. If they can get into Oxbridge, that’s wonderful. Our example was that there’s a kid who having the time of her life studying in Europe at a fraction of the cost of, versus, we’ll say, “equal” universities back home.

I’m assuming that you understand that the UCAS application allows the student to apply to more than one college, often at a fraction of the cost when applying to elite US universities, and oftentimes, finding out admission status earlier than EA choices in the U.S.

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Absolutely.

Interestingly, we sort of felt the same way about St Andrews’s dual degree partner, William & Mary. To me it is very comparable to such privates, and yet at full pay it is significantly less.

Again I understand there are people for whom that amount is still too much. But as I recall, Wake was going to run us around $20K more a year than William & Mary, and like $30K more a year than St Andrews. That’s a decent difference, enough that I think even a lot of full pay families might see it as a worthy consideration.

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Just as a quick follow up to my prior comment, both Oxford and even more so Cambridge were much more sticklers for having the necessary APs for your course, which was going to be a real pain for my S24 as his high school did not offer most of those APs (or many in general).

And then Oxbridge courses often have additional entrance exams, and then there are interviews which are no joke at all and require a lot of preparation.

Conversely, he actually applied to St Andrews through the Common App, and it basically just required a Personal Statement that was more or less just a “Why this major at this college?” essay. We would have done UCAS if he wanted to apply to more UK universities (which was a thought at one point), but it sure was easy just to apply to St Andrews as part of his normal process.

Edit: Oh, and I don’t know if this really mattered, but St Andrews was the only UK uni to send a rep to his college fair, and actually he spoke to that rep twice (as a rising junior and as a rising senior). Again, I think there was some comfort in that level of mutual interest, and also the second time around the rep was able to answer practical questions, including about APs and what that Personal Statement should be like. Definitely helped make it all easy.

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I’ll be the contrarian here.

St. Andrews is a favorite in my neck of the woods for affluent families who would rather have bragging rights than have the kid enroll in the US colleges which are the likely admits. For the most part, these are NOT Holy Cross/Wake/Lehigh students-- definitely a step down in US based “prestige”. These are not people toting up every nickel-- I’ve known families who have flown the kid home for the weekend to say good-bye to the dog before it is put down, or have had the siblings and parents fly over for the weekend because “he’s sad after his break up”.

I think St. Andrews is terrific academically. But US parents who see it as the budget option need to answer several questions:

1- Is my kid extremely well organized, self directed, manages with zero scaffolding from parents either academically or daily living?

2-Does my kid have mental health issues (even just plain vanilla anxiety) and if so, are we comfortable with a long waiting period before kid can get an appointment with a professional?

3-Can my kid successfully advocate for him/herself? Dietary needs/food allergies, tutoring/learning support, learning issues? There is MUCH less of ANY of this compared to even a community college in the US.

4- Do we have a flexible budget- recognizing that being the only kid who isn’t going to the Seychelles/Malaga/Canary Islands over a break isn’t likely to be much fun (depending on the kid of course).

5-Can we afford four full years back in the US if the kid crashes and burns and comes home at the end of year 1 with no credits? (this has been the biggest shocker for the people I know).

6- Does our kid understand international and local law-- and is our kid prepared to follow the letter of the law? I know a kid (a good kid, no trouble at home) who carried a package for “a new friend” which turned out to be some illegal drug, caught by a dog at Kings Cross station in London. Parents had to hire a local lawyer-- the charges were NOT possession but “possession with intent to sell” or something of that ilk- because the notion that someone would choose to be a drug courier just to be a nice person struck local law enforcement as not credible. Kid got lucky (thanks to the lawyer) and ended up “being asked to leave” and not deported.

There are fabulous overseas opportunities but for a very small and self selecting group of US students. Parents see this as an exit ramp for kids with “issues” and it most certainly is not that.

Hate to provide reality to this rosy picture y’all are painting.

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That isn’t how St Andrews was discussed in my circles, but for sure that would be a bad idea!

In my circles it was really about the possible experience of not just studying abroad for a semester or such, but for a full undergrad experience. And absolutely, for some kids that was a bad idea and they had to transfer back. But most of the kids/parents we talked to were very positive about the experience.

Similarly I don’t think St Andrews was ever discussed as just like a US university but less expensive. I think the idea was more that if your kid is looking for a special experience, and specifically an alternative to attending a big public university either in-state or OOS, then St Andrews was one of the more competitively priced options for full pay families.

But for sure, you actually have to want that particular experience. If you don’t, then it doesn’t really matter how it is priced.

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