LibArts vs. Ivy League

Colleges & Universities Swarthmore College
1

<p>I was recently accepted at my top two choices for college, both Swat and Brown. </p>

<p>Unfortunate, only in the fact that now I have to decide which one to go to.
Swat gave me an incredible amount of money (~$11,000 and loans taken care of–Swarthmore Scholar).
Brown gave me a not so incredible amount (~$6000+loans).</p>

<p>Brown was my dream school (EDed there) until I was deferred. Lost hope a tiny bit, and Swat became top on the list. Now that I’m in at both, I’m totally confused on which one to attend.</p>

<p>Any insight?</p>

2

<p>I think Momof3 has had one at Swarthmore and one at Brown, so hopefully she’ll chime in with some first-hand accounts. Actually, if recall, her younger one liked Swarthmore too, but wasn’t wild about going to big sis’s school.</p>

<p>I would, personally, choose Swarthmore at the same money. I just think that the interactive style of learning, the 100% focus on undergrad education, and the much larger per student resources make for an unbeatable combination. Not to take anything away from Brown. When I applied to colleges 35 years ago, it was one of my top two choices behind the LAC I applied to ED. If I recall, it was my daughter’s early favorite…until she visited Swarthmore.</p>

<p>To graduate without $20 grand in loans seems like a no-brainer.</p>

3

<p>The money issue is important. Makes your decision tough.</p>

<p>But if you check the threads on this site and elsewhere, it’s clear that Brown students are really happy and balanced, while current Swat students and alums on this site and elsewhere often talk about how stressful and overwhelming and sometimes too academic Swat can be.</p>

<p>Each school’s general reputation:
Brown - great academics, laid back atmosphere, happy students
Swat - great academics, "anywhere else it would have been an “A”, sometimes disgruntled students who have a love/hate relationship with the place.</p>

<p>You can get a great education at either school, but remember you’ll be there for 4 years. You’ll want to have a life outside the classroom and library too. Not everyone cares whether it would have been an “A” or a “Z” and some want a nice balance of academics and life. You’ll have to decide which school is more suited for you.</p>

<p>You’ll have more choices of classes, activities, social events etc at Brown just because of the larger student body, even if the per student endowment figure is higher at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>Good luck. Both good schools. There’s probably some overlap in accepted students, with most students choosing Brown.</p>

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<p>kellymegreener: Where do you get your statistics from, especially for your being a high school student writing at 4 am? </p>

<p>What figures do you base your conclusions on for Brown and Swarthmore? Instead of postings you cite from anonymous websites, one would prefer statistics for both colleges, for acceptance rates, overlaps in admissions, enrollment statistics for these overlap students, retention and graduation rates for each school, etc.</p>

<p>Now that you are following your dream to Yale, why does your persistence, interest and obsession with Swarthmore and negativity towards the school persist? </p>

<p>Who are you really? </p>

<p>Why do you write posts as if you have an overview of college admissions, when you are 17 years old? </p>

<p>Were you ever affiliated with Swarthmore as a student or employee? </p>

<p>Why have you no interest in Yale, since you claim to be going there, and that you are a 3rd generation legacy? </p>

<p>What is it you are doing writing these posts? </p>

<p>Why do you want to make people uncomfortable concerning Swarthmore? </p>

<p>Why do you compare Stanford and Dartmouth in another recent posting as similar schools when they are so different, only to try to make the point that Swartmore is unacceptable for students considering other schools? </p>

<p>When do you disappear into the matrix of a 17 year-old’s life that is happy about going to Yale, her first choice ED school? </p>

<p>You say so much so with a pseudo-authoritative tone, how do you reach your conclusions? </p>

<p>Why are your postings at hours like 3 and 4 am if you live in NYC? </p>

<p>How could you possibly know how many students choose Brown over Swarthmore, beyond your own obvious personal bias against Swarthmore fabricating your delusional conclusions?</p>

<p>Please clarify and answer the above questions.</p>

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<p>i was also admitted to both. brown was originally my second choice (behind yale, where i was rejected), but swarthmore has recently topped brown. after chatting with a guy i know at swat, i could tell how deeply he loved the place. plus their viewbook is amazing… every time i read it i want to pack up and go to swarthmore right away.</p>

<p>swat students adore their school. brown is amazing too, obviously, but swarthmore offers, to a greater extent, the kind of college experience <em>i</em> want to have. for those reasons, i vote swarthmore.</p>

<p>but it’s really all about what <em>you</em> want out of college :slight_smile: they’re both very different schools. honestly, i don’t think you can go wrong with either choice. but do a lot of research before you decide. congrats by the way =)</p>

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<p>to clarify on my post above – why i would choose swat, personally:</p>

<ul>
<li>intense atmosphere (intense does not have to mean stressful)</li>
<li>swat students love to learn</li>
<li>profs are there to TEACH</li>
<li>ugrads can do original research</li>
<li>beautiful, beautiful campus</li>
<li>philosophical convos at 3am with your roommate… (that came from a video interview i watched of a current swat freshman… they’re really great, if you can find them on their site… sorry i lost the URL)</li>
<li>all the traditions they have at swat: the godfather, chocolates and choosing, the pterodactyl hunt… lol i dunno, i find them so cute :)</li>
<li>you can take classes at UPenn and swat will pay for the train fee! if you study abroad, swat will pay for airfare + any difference in tuition… what amazing opportunities</li>
<li>extremely strong dedication to community service</li>
</ul>

<p>yeah. i love swat. i’ve not completely decided where i will be going to college, however. my top two choices are swarthmore and another school (not brown)… it’s very difficult, but it’s a happy dilemma to have.</p>

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<p>brown…and as a bonus, you won’t have to answer “isn’t that an all girls school?”</p>

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<p>hey babybelugawhale. .i like your nick by the way:)
i’m in exactly the same dilemma as u are! i’m finding it pretty tough, especially as i’m overseas and can’t visit either campuses.
let me know when u make up your mind. we might even get to meet each other in the fall:D</p>

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<p>Hi BabyBeluga,
As collegialmom has pointed out, this “kellymegreener” poster knows absolutely NOTHING, zilch, zippo about Swarthmore. S/he MAY have visited once, but that’s about it. We haven’t quite figured out if s/he just gets a charge out of attempting to annoy the parents/students who try to contribute to the Swat forum or if his/her fine independent school in NYC doesn’t give him/her enough work to keep him/her occupied.</p>

<p>That being said, I am the mom of an actual junior at Swat. He would tell you “congratulations,” and that you have been accepted to two pretty fantastic schools. However, they are pretty different. I can tell you that my S had no interest whatsoever in Brown, feeling that it wasn’t academic enough for him. (He is slightly nuts, I’ll admit.) He is a double Honors major and yet he has stated on this forum that he spends 20-30 hours per week in extracurricular activities. He also spends plenty of time procrastinating. He is also carrying a high GPA.</p>

<p>While Brown is certainly bigger, attendance at Swarthmore means that you can take classes at Bryn Mawr and Haverford as well. You can also take classes at Penn. You can attend activities on Swat’s campus as well as activities on the Bryn Mawr and Haverford campuses. For example, last Saturday night my son went to see a play on the Haverford campus.</p>

<p>If you are looking for a name, Brown probably has it more that Swarthmore. The Swarthmore campus is spectacularly gorgeous, the classes are generally small (S’s seminars are capped at 10 students, and his non-seminar classes 1st semester had between 11-16 students) and the kids are generally quite an interesting bunch. Unlike “kellymegreener,” I won’t try to tell you about Brown, since I’ll admit I know nothing about it. If there’s any possibility of visiting Swat during Ride the Tide, as well as visiting Brown, you will probably be able to see/feel the difference for yourself. That plus the $$ difference might clarify things for you. Good luck! You can’t go wrong!</p>

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<p>This is probably because of the Ivy League; however, the “name” Swarthmore is <em>extremely</em> respected in academia. My dad’s a professor and his prof friends were all (reportedly) excited when he mentioned I had applied to Swarthmore. Swarthmore students are also very well-recognized by grad schools – my friend who is currently at Swarthmore told me that they understand that there is no grade inflation at Swat (more like grade deflation) and they know how hard Swat students work.</p>

<p>So really, name recognition depends on where you’re talking about (the name Brown would probably be more recognized by the average person than Swarthmore). Not to contradict momof3sons’s post by any means :slight_smile: Just wanted to point out that Swarthmore’s “name” is very well-recognized in certain circles!</p>

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<p><em>Waits intently</em></p>

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<p>Thanks m_c,
My comment about Brown’s name recognition was only my “attempt” to be fair and balanced. :wink: In the circle’s my S hopes to travel in, Swat is certainly well recognized!</p>

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<p>m_c’s comment about philosophical conversations at 3 AM at night: this is a typical Swat characteristic. My son is by all measures pretty “normal”, has “normal” friends (don’t ask me to define what normal is, but he’s never been on the fringe of anything either in high school or in college), but he talks to his friends in this way quite often. On his recent visit he was telling me how his friend (an honors Philosophy major) and he decided that sociobiology is not totally believable. I’ve always admired EO Wilson and we have read all his books at home. This one came as a particular surprise to me…but he did seem to have a point. Please don’t ask me to start a discussion about that, though. But questioning things - I think that is a desirable characteristic in anyone who is a student. On another occasion, I heard him and his Swat friends talk about some scientists treating science as a religion and how that approach does not leave much room for questioning things…</p>

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<p>My son at Swarthmore is also a very “normal” person who is intellectually curious and intent but not oppressive concerning academics. He did not want to consider Brown, and I think he thought it was too artsy or liberal or something like that. But we never visited, so I also am not a Brown expert. He applied to Swarthmore ED, so I can’t say what admissions choices would have been. </p>

<p>The overlap schools for him would have been an Ivy or University of Chicago, although with few exceptions, he very much preferred Swarthmore. Although he applied to other LACs, and withdrew his applications after the ED acceptance, Swarthmore definitely was his first LAC choice.</p>

<p>I am not saying that it is the best school overall for everything or everyone. During the college visits, most schools had me convinced they were the best, and I still think they nearly all looked terrific. What I am trying to say is that there are many good choices, just choose one and go with it. After the decision is made, it gets a lot easier, that’s for sure.</p>

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<p>College professors love Swarthmore. In a way, it’s a side benefit of the Honors Program. Every year, Swat brings in outside professors to give written and oral exams to all the Honors candidates. In recent years, I think it’s been over 130 professors from other schools who spend several days on campus, giving oral exams to Swarthmore seniors. Obviously, most are impressed with the school and the students. It’s pretty hard to be in academia, spend a few days on the Swat campus in late spring and not be impressed. It’s kind of intoxicating with the flowers all in bloom, the grass green, and a bunch of really capable students.</p>

<p>Now, multiply this number of professors by the 80 years of the Honors Program. That is a LOT of outside professors who have gotten first-hand exposure to Swarthmore and, with the multiplier effect, a much larger number who have heard about it through their professor friends over the years. That word of mouth contributes to Swat’s positive reputation.</p>

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<p>Swarthmore and Brown were my top two choices, but I got waitlisted at Brown. I was also accepted at UPenn, vassar, and wesleyan (where they offered me a “university scholarship” with special research stipends/guaranteed interships and faculty mentors…). I love Swarthmore for all of the reasons most do-- strong committment to social justice, genuine intellectual curiosity, beautiful campus… but now I’m torn between schools-- UPenn has an edge as an ivy league school, and i like vassar and wesleyan…
Any thoughts?</p>

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<p>cseixas,
I’m not trying to be a wise*ss, honestly, but can you please explain what you consider to be Penn’s “edge” ?</p>

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<p>BabyB,</p>

<p>I am the one with a daughter who graduated from Swat and son at Brown. (ID, you have amazing recall.) In fact, my son was faced with your decision last year, and was feeling a heck of a lot of pressure from Big Sis to go to Swarthmore, which she thinks of as heaven on earth. My kids have similar academic interests, (music and languages) so my son would really have been walking in her footsteps, and that did not seem like a great idea. He’d already been there, done that all the way through high school. </p>

<p>Brown held lots of similar appeal to Swat for my son, in that he loves the diversity of both, loves the big city possibilities both offer (Boston is 45 minutes away on a bus that costs under $15 round-trip) and he loves the intellectual atmosphere of both. He has chosen to live in a sub-free dorm at Brown, so he is not into the party scene that so many experience. I think his buddies are generally intellectual, too, and though they are having a really great time in the social realm and playing intramural basketball, they are serious about their studies. So, Swarthmore would have provided the same kind of opportunities he is availing himself of at Brown. Of course Brown allows one to choose one’s own curriculum. That worried me a bit, as my son sometimes has trouble making clear decisions among wonderful alternatives (and had a HECK of a time deciding between Swat, Pomona, Brown and a couple of others, so I empathize with you!!) . . . the open curriculum at Brown does not always make things easier. And the option to take anything and everything pass/fail sometimes leads to agonizing about how much effort to put into a class.</p>

<p>All in all, I know my son would have been very happy at Swat if he had gone there, but he is delighted to be at Brown. </p>

<p>If I can offer you any other specifics, feel free to PM me!</p>

<p>All the best!</p>

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<p>I’m in pretty much your exact same situation cseixas. I didn’t get into my top choices, and now I’m deciding between Swarthmore and UPenn. We should get together and talk some time.</p>

<p>@mom, maybe I can answer, and maybe my answer’s shallow, but. Within my school and town, Swarthmore is practically unheard of while UPenn has some prestige as being a member of the ivy league. People are generally much more impressed when I tell them I got into UPenn. I know that shouldn’t affect my decision too much, but it does somewhat. Also, UPenn I think has the stronger alumni network.</p>

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<p>BabyBelugaWhale - congratulations on both admissions! I went to Swarthmore (class of '03), so I am partial to it, but I do not think there is a “right” answer to this kind of question. I’d say the advantages of Swarthmore relative to Brown are the same general advantages LAC’s have relative to research universities: smaller classes and much, much more personal attention from faculty (especially since the criteria for hiring and promotion emphasize teaching more at the LAC’s). </p>

<p>I think you will get a better education at Swarthmore, especially if you sign up for seminars. They are often called “Honors seminars” because you used to have to be Honors to be admitted; however, this is no longer true, and you should sign up for them whether or not you are interested in taking the Honors exams.</p>

<p>Educational quality is not the only thing to consider, especially since this is the place you will be living for the next four years and the two schools are so different in so many ways. Ultimately, I would choose the place where you think you will be happier. Would you rather be in a larger community or a smaller one? A more “intellectual” environment or a more “laid-back” one?</p>

<p>Incidentally, you may not have realized this, but Swarthmore’s Quaker tradition has a big effect on the culture of the school. For example, the egalitarian values of that tradition have the effect of discouraging displays of wealth among the student body. You will not see students wearing Ralph Lauren polos or carrying designer handbags. I do not know what things are like at Brown, but here at Stanford Law School, where most of the students went to prestigious, big-name universities, students are clearly competing to show off how rich their parents are.</p>