Liberal Racism?

[pmrlcomm]

<p>I can guarantee you that affirmative action has created tension and racist feelings. All people want is to be judged by the work they do. Nothing more, nothing less. It is ignorant to think that quota systems and advantages given to any group over another, by the gov’t no less, will create problems. You can’t make up for past wrongs by committing new ones in the opposite direction.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>

But it is not debatable that the Klan and other white supremacist groups have harmed blacks and that they aim to harm blacks intentionally, even to the point of plotting a violent race-war to destroy blacks in America. The latter harm and its intent is not in doubt.

With that I will agree.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Really, Drosselmeier, according to your line of thinking here, Bin Laden is on your side.

</p>

<p>False. bin Laden does not ascribe to any American liberal position, but an Islamic Fundamentalist position. He is more related, ideologically and morally, to Christian Fundamentalism in that he wishes to exact a rigid theological worldview onto the world’s politics.</p>

<p>

Certainly Ayers, in his heyday. It sounds pretty ridiculous, doesn’t it.

</p>

<p>Not in the least. Ayers is indeed on my side. But we are talking racism here. Ayers did not aim to murder whites. Indeed, he did not aim to murder anyone. He simply wished to incite insurrection against the American government by blowing up buildings (warning people to leave them so that he would not harm anyone). He is certainly not an ideological counterpart to [those</a> on the right who even now enter our military to get training and weapons in preparation for an eventual race war](<a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/washington/07recruit.html]those”>http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/07/washington/07recruit.html).</p>

[pmrlcomm]

<p>

But it is not debatable that the Klan and other white supremacist groups have harmed blacks and that they aim to harm blacks intentionally, even to the point of plotting a violent race-war to destroy blacks in America. The latter harm and its intent is not in doubt.

</p>

<p>Agreed. Conservatives cannot stop that ilk from identifying with us but the love isn’t returned… I’m sure the liberals would love to be able to disassociate themselves from any number of groups and organizations.</p>

<p>

He is certainly not an ideological counterpart to those on the right who even now enter our military to get training and weapons in preparation for an eventual race war.

</p>

<p>So what other conspiracies are real Dross?</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

What do we find, racially speaking, as we drift continually leftward on this continuum? We find Political Correctness, increasing ever leftward until it eventually goes on steroids. Here, even words like “niggardly” and terms like “black hole” can provoke claims of “racism” and possible job loss. Some resources (not opportunities) are taken directly from whites and given directly to blacks because of the nation’s past sins against blacks. In America, that is as bad as it gets. It is rare, and even this is changing rightward with each passing day.

Well, that is pretty bad. Forcibly taking wealth and transferring to others is not exactly optimal. Most places that is called theft. With the government it’s simply taxes. Of course there is also lost wages for people who would have been hired had affirmative action not existed.</p>

<p>The true question is this: How long? How long will white taxpayers pay for the sins of their ancestors? 100 years? 200 years? How long will affirmative action exist? And why did hispanics somehow get included in that racket? I still don’t understand that in the slightest.</p>

[JHS]

<p>zoosermom: The nazis were not ever “lefties”. From Day 1, they defined themselves in opposition to the communists and socialists. They weren’t free marketers, either, of course (the traditional definition of “liberal”), but “National Socialism” never had anything to do with socialism as Europeans knew that term. It was more a statement of their belief that individual interests should be subordinate to those of the nation as a whole.</p>

<p>And if you’ve never met a true lefty who viewed people as individuals rather than group members . . . then you’ve never met any kind of lefty at all. I guess I would concede that the Cultural Revolution in China had that characteristic, but you would have trouble filling a telephone booth in this country with lefties who think that was a good idea.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Well, that is pretty bad. Forcibly taking wealth and transferring to others is not exactly optimal. Most places that is called theft. With the government it’s simply taxes.

</p>

<p>The problem is, taxes for this redistribution do not pay only for blacks, since whites receive them by far more than blacks. Indeed, of all social security checks being written white receive something like eight-eight percent, while blacks receive only about nine percent. The same is true of other welfare programs. While blacks receive a larger share proportionately than whites, the raw dollars (which represent the actual outlay for welfare programs), are flowing mostly to whites. This conversation deals with racism, I must remind you. The point here is that no racial injustice on the order of encouraging a race-war is taking place even here. The redistribution is not direct. Even with Affirmative Action whites have benefited more than blacks.</p>

[zoosermom]

<p>

And if you’ve never met a true lefty who viewed people as individuals rather than group members . . . then you’ve never met any kind of lefty at all.

</p>

<p>By your definition, but not by theirs. I stand by my statement of having not met lefties (and I mean no offense by the term, using it to distinguish from democrats and liberals) who view people as individuals. Again, I work in BigLaw in NYC and people here are hardcore. I won’t bore you with my “spat-in-face” story again.</p>

[pmrlcomm]

<p>The fact that affirmative action (it doesn’t deserver to be capitalized) took from one group and gave to another based soley on skin color or gender or anything else is wrong. You shouldn’t get more than you work for or deserve in any instance.</p>

[Drosselmeier]

<p>

Agreed. Conservatives cannot stop that ilk from identifying with us but the love isn’t returned…

It doesn’t matter, of course. The fact is, they are on your side, which means support for your side by default assists their aims. That is why they almost always support your candidates and despise mine.

I’m sure the liberals would love to be able to disassociate themselves from any number of groups and organizations.

To be sure, but the point here does not merely concern unsavory groups. It concerns racism. I contend that the locus of the most virulent and dangerous racism exists on the right. I think it spreads leftward, but coming from the right.

So what other conspiracies are real Dross?

</p>

<p>Well, as a black man, that solitary right-wing conspiracy is quite enough. It means my wife, my children, and I are always in danger – from the right.</p>

[pmrlcomm]

<p>

It doesn’t matter, of course. The fact is, they are on your side, which means support for your side by default assists their aims. That is why they almost always support your candidates and despise mine.

</p>

<p>I’m all for taking away their right to vote. Anyone else? You really are just a hater, aren’t you? I guess you really don’t know how absurd you sound. You are as bad as the people you are trying to denounce.</p>

[Mr_Payne]

<p>

The problem is, taxes for this redistribution do not pay only for blacks, since whites receive them by far more than blacks.

Yeah, but one has to look at who pays for it. </p>

<p>

Indeed, of all social security checks being written white receive something like eight-eight percent, while blacks receive only about nine percent.

Who pays for it? </p>

<p>

The same is true of other welfare programs. While blacks receive a larger share proportionately than whites, the raw dollars (which represent the actual outlay for welfare programs), are flowing mostly to whites.

Raw dollars are irrelevant.</p>

<p>

This conversation deals with racism, I must remind you. The point here is that no racial injustice on the order of encouraging a race-war is taking place even here.

If a race war happens (a minute possibility) it won’t be between blacks and whites. It’d be between whites & hispanics or blacks & hispanics.</p>

<p>

The redistribution is not direct. Even with Affirmative Action whites have benefited more than blacks.

Explain this further.</p>

[madville]

<p>

The redistribution is not direct. Even with Affirmative Action whites have benefited more than blacks. </p>

<p>Explain this further.

</p>

<p>Though many argue that affirmative action has made whites the victims of massive “reverse discrimination,” and thus necessitated the rise of a white rights movement to secure white collective interests, the evidence simply doesn’t support such a view. Although individual whites have likely experienced instances of discrimination–and anecdotal data suggests this is true, though far, far less often than the occasions when people of color experience it–there is nothing to indicate that such incidents are a widespread social phenomenon, against which whites now require organizations to protect them. </p>

<p>So, for instance, whites hold over ninety percent of all the management level jobs in this country (1), receive about ninety-four percent of government contract dollars (2), and hold ninety percent of tenured faculty positions on college campuses (3). Contrary to popular belief, and in spite of affirmative action programs, whites are more likely than members of any other racial group to be admitted to their college of first choice (4). Furthermore, white men with only a high school diploma are more likely to have a job than black and Latino men with college degrees (5), and even when they have a criminal record, white men are more likely than black men without one to receive a call back for a job interview, even when all their credentials are the same (6). Despite comparable rates of school rule infractions, white students are only half to one-third as likely as blacks and Latino youth to be suspended or expelled (7); and despite higher rates of drug use, white youth are far less likely to be arrested, prosecuted or incarcerated for a drug offense than are youth of color (8). </p>

<p>So when it comes to jobs, education, housing, contracting, or anything else, people of color are the ones facing discrimination and restricted opportunities, while whites remain on top, making the idea of organizing for our collective interests little more than piling dominance on top of dominance. Not to ensure a place at the table, so to speak, but to secure the table itself, and to control who gets to be seated around it, for now and always. </p>

<p>This has happened in part due to the many laws and practices put in place throughout American history that has created an unlevel field of opportunity for people of color and has perpetuated disparities that are still here to this day. One has to recognize that many of those arguments for meritocracy come after a foundation of superiority and advantage by the status quo had been established and entrenched for others of their ilk to perpetuate and benefit from, even though they may not have been the direct architects of such policies.</p>

[poetsheart]

<p>

I don’t recall hearing anyone on the Right call on God to da** our country.

</p>

<p>No, the ones on the right were sure that God had already damned America, and made that pronouncement with the confident hubris that only the self-righteous seem to muster. They declared that, in answer to her iniquities, God’s just wrath had been sent in the form of 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina (tolerating all those homosexuals, you know:rolleyes:).</p>

<p>Nicely selective memory you’ve got there, bz.</p>

[toblin]

<p>*There is nothing more ill-liberal, than a liberal. *
**
William F. Buckley **</p>

[poetsheart]

<p>

Anyone else? You really are just a hater, aren’t you? I guess you really don’t know how absurd you sound. You are as bad as the people you are trying to denounce.

</p>

<p>Note: When you can’t mount a solid counter-argument, resort to name-calling. And if that doesn’t work, try breath-holding;)</p>

[pmrlcomm]

<p>This is one of those cases where any argument is futile. No point will be valid enough, no data can be good enough. You conveniently left out the many valid point I made during the course of this discussion. I’m glad you feel better now.</p>

[simba]

<p>“Cynicism aside, one such endeavor has been understaken in Cincinnati. There is subsidized housing incorporated with full paying residents in newly developed Brownstone housing along with developing retail. The verdict is still out as to how the social engineering project is working out. Past history has been argued that the results are mixed at best.”</p>

<p>As Program Moves Poor to Suburbs, Tensions Follow</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/us/09housing.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin[/url]”>http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/09/us/09housing.html?_r=1&ref=us&oref=slogin&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[spideygirl]

<p>Drosselmeier:

I contend that the locus of the most virulent and dangerous racism exists on the right. I think it spreads leftward, but coming from the right.

</p>

<p>I totally disagree with this. It is very apparent to me that liberal politicians in general like to make racially directed promises of “what government will give you if I am elected”. It’s vintage Democratic Party. Liberalism hopes to keep people dependant on the government - it encourages it. Whether it be through matters of race, immigration, healthcare, etc. - the specific issue doesn’t really matter. Dems would love it if way over 50% of the country paid no taxes at all. That would be their guarantee to be the party in power forever. </p>

<p>The Dem party would really suffer if race became less of an issue in this country. That is why they are always fanning the flames. The nonobservant think the Dem race talk is compassion, but the astute see it for what it is, a huge smoke screen. The epitome of hypocrisy.</p>

<p>Where you see a strong faith in the ability of individuals to solve their own problems, for families to take care of each other, and for communities to attend to the needs of their residents, that is where you will find authentic belief in the equality of people. That is where racism ends, and lots of other kinds of isms as well.</p>

[spideygirl]

<p>Drosselmeier:

It is debatable that welfare policies have harmed blacks and that they have harmed blacks intentionally. One would be hard pressed to prove that those policies resulted of racism, especially when the policies affect and “benefit” whites even more than they do blacks. But it is not debatable that the Klan and other white supremacist groups have harmed blacks and that they aim to harm blacks intentionally, even to the point of plotting a violent race-war to destroy blacks in America. The latter harm and its intent is not in doubt. That it stems from racism is not up to debate. And it comes almost one hundred percent from the right.

</p>

<p>It is really offensive to keep lumping people like the KKK in with conservatives or people “on the right”. I am really surprised. The absense of good reasoning is appalling.</p>

<p>I know lots of conservatives and people on the right side of American politics. I don’t know one person who would consider a member of the KKK as anything more than a societal reject, someone without a spot on the spectrum.</p>