Thank you for that clarifying info! Good to know that undergrads at big research universities do indeed have access to research opportunities. I guess some of the small LACs, in their attempt to woo STEM kids, are being a bit misleading by suggesting otherwise. .
Thank you! Great to know that WPI has strong music offerings and that my kid would find like-minded people there.
Hopefully just selling themselves but not in dismissing others.
Lots of research out there.
As you like urban, you might look at the U of SC Honors College, one of the top rated. The overall school is large population wise but the campus itself is reasonably sized.
Historically it and ASU were the top Honors Colleges although I think UGA took the crown this year. The offerings at U of SC Honors are impressive.
If you’re going to look at big, it’d be a good one to look at.
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Clark and WPI are in a consortium and can cross register
Cross Registration | Worcester Polytechnic Institute
This came up randomly WPI vs. Clark? - College Search & Selection - College Confidential Forums
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Brandeis is worth a look (with an important caveat that I’ll get to below):
–suburban, with decent access to Boston
–definitely a life of the mind school with strong commitment to STEM and really terrific faculty
–in that 3,000-5,000 sweet spot where you have enough undergrads to make things interesting but not so many that you feel invisible.
–they have had a strong music department with an in-residence string quartet.
–this would likely be a match or even a likely (depending on how much interest you show).
Unfortunately they are having budget issues and have recently opted to prioritize the science side of things over music (the string quartet was recently given notice that their contract would not be renewed next year and they are phasing out a music PhD program). Faculty and alumni are trying frantically to save the quartet but the school needs to hear from prospective students that things like this matter. If you go visit the school (and you should!), maybe emphasize how complementary their music and science programs are?
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William and Mary has a brand new arts complex, and the music department has its own building with very nice concert and practice spaces. There is a music major, but many non major students participate in the musical groups. Strong chemistry department as well. My son is there now and really enjoying it.
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fwiw, our DC is in many ways similar to your own (chemistry, music and music theory, intellectual) and we recently visited Wesleyan on a NE tour. It’s larger than other LACs we’ve toured—Swarthmore seemed too small to DC, though I loved it—and also has the advantage of having small graduate cohorts in the sciences (PhD offered in Chemistry, for ex), so presumably research opportunities as well. If cities are relevant, Hartford is of course nearby and we were surprised by how close Middletown is to New Haven (and I understand why Middletown might seem uninspiring). Many other LACs that have been mentioned seem much more remote (Williams and Hamilton in particular).
DC is a current senior and ED’d elsewhere, but Wesleyan will be in play for the RD round if needed, whereas Swarthmore and Williams will not.
Also, the PSAT math score seems a fluke given the other info you’ve shared and I suspect the SAT will accurately reflect your kid’s abilities.
Good luck.
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Yes there are research opportunities for undergraduates at LACs and at schools with graduate programs. I think the difference is the potential for independent and scientific contributions by the undergrad. At a graduate school, the research study design, methods to be used, or methods to be developed are discussed between the professor, possibly a post-doc, and graduate student(s) and decisions are made. Undergrads may be brought in to perform some of the methods. Progress or problems with the program will be discussed in lab meetings with the professor and grad students. Presentations on the program will be made by the professor or grad student. In a research program without grad students, the professor discusses the study design and methods directly with the undergrads, so the undergrads have the potential to provide their input. The undergrads will carry out the methods that they may have had input on. Lab meetings will be held with the professor and the undergrads. Undergrads may make presentations at regional or even national meetings.
So, I think that research-oriented undergrads have the opportunity to provide scientific input earlier in in their career at an undergrad-only institution. Of course, this isn’t to say a research-oriented undergrad that actively pursues the many research opportunities at a graduate institution couldn’t contribute their own ideas, but that process is a little more direct at an undergrad-only school.
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UC Berkeley, but might be too large.
UC Santa Cruz is an interesting school for a particular kind of student.
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I agree. At the LAC, it’s the prof and the student and nobody else. So ALL the opportunities go to the student, and this includes the thinking and planning.
Another difference can be norms. I attended one of the LACs that OP’s child is seriously considering. Essentially every chemistry major did research. Those profs tracked us down! Starting in freshman year, they pulled us into research. We pulled each other into research – “Whose lab are you working in? What? You haven’t started yet, how come? (Oh, you’re working in the History department? Cool.)” To even get hired, profs had to show how they would actively provide research, TA positions, and mentoring to undergrads. During the school year, during the summers, always. Providing undergrads research opportunities was #2 on the list (right after #1, teaching undergrads) of their mission.
I later worked in a lab at a large university (also mentioned in this thread.) Our lab did have an undergrad. The PI (head professor of the lab) was super impressed because this student had actively sought out a research position–what a go getter! They had never had an undergrad before, but they were happy to have her aboard, and did find things for her to do. She did get the opportunity to present a poster. So also a good experience, but very different norms.
The downside of research at LACs can be the importance of the research. If you do research at an R1 university, there is a good chance you are working on something important. At an LAC, the importance of the science is often secondary to providing the research experience to the undergrad.
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Has anyone mentioned College of William & Mary? That was the first school that came to my mind when I think of quirky, academic-y, and chemistry. I didn’t know about their music department but it looks like they have plenty of offerings; not for a BFA, but one can major or minor in music, and they have what looks to me like a good variety of ensembles. I don’t know the school well but we had a great visit there in June, and my senior quirky chemist will be applying RD soon. Most of her choices are large universities but we were all really impressed with the place and the people we met on our visit. They’re investing heavily in STEM.
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Not to get too nit-picky- but you are really describing a phenomenon of “when” vs. anything inherent in a small college vs. big research U.
When an undergrad joins a research team at a large U- perhaps year 3 of an 8 year grant-- it would be far-fetched to assume that anyone on the team needs help designing the study or defining the problem. The NIH gave the 100 million dollar grant to explore a specific protein in spinal fluid which may or may not be an early marker for MS. The study was designed with a real world problem and potential solution; these research teams aren’t designed to mesh with “oh, the semester doesn’t start until early September so the lab can go on hiatus for July and August until the team shows up”.
So claiming that being part of research design is a benefit of a small college is neither here nor there. A student can join a research team at a large U which is in the early stages of sketching out what they think the grant application should look like. And it can take two years of experimentation and failure to develop a grant application- and undergrads on the team would be part of this. Merck isn’t waiting for undergrads to move in; the study benchmarks are measured in months and years not semesters.
So I think using “can an undergrad get involved in research” as a decision point isn’t terribly compelling. Yes and yes. My own kids experiences- at mid-sized research U’s-- sometimes you are showing up partway, sometimes you are there in the early defining stages, sometimes you are lucky enough to be part of the champagne popping stage when a hypothesis is directionally correct.
But you can’t train as a scientist if you’re only “going for the gold”. You need to learn all of it- the slow, meticulous work to develop a grant which is “grantworthy”, the early stages of figuring out “what don’t we know and how do we learn it quickly”, the assembling of equipment or identifying subject matter experts around the world who can trouble-shoot your glitches, etc. It’s nice to be part of a small, concentrated “one professor and one undergrad” team, but it’s not terribly realistic.
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Wow, that would be amazing! (a typical NIH grant is ~$500,000, and even a $10 million grant is very rare.) But your points are well taken. I know MIT provided your son with amazing research opportunities, so perhaps it is possible for students to get “the best of both worlds” especially at some of the elite private research universities.
I made up my example of course. And spinal fluid and MS is a very well researched topic already…
Thank you so much for this! You are helping me to realize that it would be well worth taking another look at Wesleyan–during the school year, as opposed to during the summer.
We looked at Swarthmore, and DC liked it, but I have some concerns about what might be a culture of academic stress & intensity there (I realize I could well be wrong about this). Academic intensity would be fine and welcome, but the hope is to find a place that tempers it with a playful spirit.
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Thank you! Yes, a few others have suggested William & Mary. It really does sound like a place we should consider seriously. Best wishes to your daughter!!
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I went to Beloit and loved it- definitely a quirky, diverse, academic culture. They have a beautiful new science building, and it’s within easy driving distance of Madison and Chicago. They have a special interest house called BSFFA, Beloit Science Fiction & Fantasy Association, kids who are into D&D, board games, etc find it easy to fit in. My own DD would have it on her list, but unfortunately they don’t have the one extracurricular that’s most important to her (neither does Mac, bummer- but all of the other schools on your kid’s favorites list are also on hers!). The schools she’s considering for match/safety are Kalamazoo, Wooster, a couple women’s colleges and Brandeis. Give Brandeis a look- they are the second smallest R1 school in the country and have a BIG research budget per student, with one of the highest #s of kids going on to grad school in STEM. Tends to attract artsy, smart kids who don’t care about sports/Greek life, and I was pleasantly surprised by how nice the campus was. My kid had the same reaction to Wes yours did- which was a bummer considering their 5th year free masters option for STEM is pretty cool.
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Thank you so much! This is really helpful. We will definitely take a look at Beloit. Sounds fantastic. It’s great to know about the BSFFA.
I imagine our kids would be friends, given their similar interests and school preferences. I agree–too bad a bout the “meh” reaction to Wesleyan. I’m wondering if we should try to see it agin while classes are in session.
Others have also suggested Brandeis. Definitely sounds like it would be good to visit.
Thank you so much! Someone else has recommended Brandeis as well. It sounds like a great option. That size is definitely appealing, I think. Good to know about the budget issues and potential cuts to music offerings. I think we should still take a look.
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