<p>You know my “Isn’t her hired hand an old man?” Well, never mind. I just did a name-check and realized that Cholo’s still around for the sequel 20-25 years later. (And I apologize if anyone considers that a spoiler - though it really isn’t, I promise. Remember I had to go the name-check route.) Anyone care to venture how old he is in LD. I swear I thought he was already in his seventies.</p>
<p>I had imagine Cholo as fairly old, but mostly off limits because he was Mexican. But if Clara is in her late 30’s or early 40s he could be old and only in his 50s, I guess. The women certainly had no shortage of men who were in love with them. </p>
<p>I really was shocked when Janey was killed, I’d really imagined a future for her - I think she would have been good for July.</p>
<p>I thought he was at least old enough to be her father. And somewhere near the end, I think someone said – or maybe it was the narrator – that Cholo was in love with her. I’ll see if I can find what I <em>think</em> I’m remembering. </p>
<p>I guess Cholo had no last name? “Cholo” is not even a name, really. It’s a descriptive term that apparently started as an ethnic slur and doesn’t seem ever to have had any positive connotations.</p>
<p>In English it would be like somebody being called “Mutt” or “Mongrel,” I think.</p>
<p>LasMa, this might be what you’re thinking of: </p>
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</p>
<p>NJTheatreMOM, It wouldn’t surprise me if Cholo did not have (or did not remember) a last name, considering his history:</p>
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</p>
<p>That’s the one, Mary. Thanks. As for his age, there’s a reference somewhere to his having white hair.</p>
<p>Janey -the “original Katniss” .Her skills reminded me of The Hunger Games.</p>
<p>Deets and the Quilted pants- seemed strange to me- any thoughts of the importance of those quilted pants ? </p>
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<p>Many of the characters in the story have quirks or unusual habits: Deets mending his pants, Lippy’s attachment to his filthy hat, Bolivar’s bell ringing, Clara’s insatiable love of sweets. It makes them more human somehow. It also adds a little humor at times (and makes it easier to remember who’s who in this large cast of characters).</p>
<p>I don’t think of the quilted pants as being particularly symbolic. Sometimes, I read a book and symbolism jumps out at me left and right. (I’ve read books like that with all of you in the CC club.). But I feel like Lonesome Dove is an adventure story and a character study, and not constructed in such a way that we see leitmotifs and symbolism at every turn of the page. (You’ll find many “Spark Notes” type websites that disagree with me, I’m sure!)</p>
<p>Re authors and symbolism, did I ever post this on a previous book thread?: <a href=“The Paris Review - Document: The Symbolism Survey - The Paris Review”>http://www.theparisreview.org/blog/2011/12/05/document-the-symbolism-survey/</a>
As Jack Kerouac wrote, “There are all kinds of ‘classics.’” I think some authors carefully employ conscious symbolism, creating a sort of intricate puzzle for the reader, whereas other authors focus primarily on plot, and the symbolism reveals itself in a more unconscious, “free-flowing” way as the story unfolds. </p>
<p>The whole business of symbolism is interesting - it was the bane of my younger son’s high school experiences and one of the reasons he signed up for the mysteries elective his senior year instead of doing honors or AP English. As a creative writer he’s much more interested in the mechanics of pacing and plotting and for fantasy world-creating. He’s a big fan of the podcast <a href=“http://www.writingexcuses.com/”>http://www.writingexcuses.com/</a> which is put together by two writers and one comic book author.</p>
<p>This is what Hemingway had to say about symbolism:
But the poor kid was still forced to write at length about the religious symblism in Old Man and the Sea. I don’t know if Hemingway was lying, or English teachers discount his words, but it was frustrating for my kid who felt beyond a few obvious things the whole exercise was forced.</p>
<p>All that said, I too, wondered about the importance of those patched pants Deets wore. They were mentioned so often you began to feel like they must represent something!</p>
<p>I just figured that McMurtry must have heard about a real person who wore pants made of an old patchwork quilt and was fascinated by the idea.</p>
<p>Whenever he mentioned those pants, I thought about how hot they would have been.</p>
<p>I kept thinking of those preppy madras patchwork pants that were in style a couple of decades ago. Not a good look!</p>
<p>mathmom: My daughter still gripes about her freshman English teacher (high school) and symbolism in Catcher in the Rye and it’s been eight years.</p>
<p>Deets’ pants:
<a href=“http://www.thewittliffcollections.txstate.edu/collections/lonesome-dove/film/online-exhibit/cdr_deets.html”>http://www.thewittliffcollections.txstate.edu/collections/lonesome-dove/film/online-exhibit/cdr_deets.html</a></p>
<p>I thought the treatment of the pants (and a lot of the clothing and other material goods in the book) was typical of the frugality of the times. I remember when I saw an old will from one of my ggg grands in old Texas, and how unusual it seemed to me the passing down therein of old bedding from one generation to another–especially in our disposable age. Can you imagine inheriting sheets and quilts now when it’s so easy to drive up to BB&B to buy new ones? I suspect there’d be a huge ick factor these days! But guess what I have from my g-grandmother from Texas? Old quilts! I think they are beautiful–even though they are kind of beaten up, marked, and used. I have to was them in a bathtub and let them dry outside in the sun. They take forever to dry–poor Deets! They’re also much thinner than modern quilts, so it’s possible Deets is just wearing the quilted cotton either minus the batting or with the thin batting, and that this was all he had. </p>
<p>Speaking of clothing, I also found it touching that Gus bought Lorie dresses before she moved in with Clara. My husband took my copy of the book to read, and we’ve been talking about it (no spoilers, of course 
He was amused by Lorena’s clothing of pants, and Call’s comment about not having seen a woman in pants before. </p>
<p>I didn’t see symbolism written into this book. Just descriptive writing that builds each character with quirkiness and makes them so easy to imagine! </p>
<p>My kids took EPGY classes from Stanford when they were younger. I myself will never forget the symbolism they had to write about in one of the first stories, Shirley Jackson’s “The Lottery”. Then high school AP classes were rich with this requirement. Yikes, it was thick. </p>
<p>^^Wasn’t it Clara who wore pants, not Lorena? It’s been a long time since I read it.</p>
<p>^^^ Lorena shows up in pants at the start of the trail drive. It makes the men uncomfortable.</p>
<p>
I guess my answer would be mostly all of them:</p>
<p>Gus … no explanation needed </p>
<p>Call … respect … and the same need to push at him that Gus has</p>
<p>Pea Eye … for his “amazing persistence and loyalty” … Pea Eye doesn’t get enough credit, I think. He’s first to race into the water to rescue Sean from snakes. Pea Eye watches out for Newt - riding out to find him after the cattle stampede and then after Jake’s hanging:
And, of course, Pea Eye’s long walk to reach the Captain after Gus was wounded - not to mention that he did it nude after getting away from Indians. Pea always seemed to be present but unremarked.</p>
<p>Deets … for his kindness and dignity. </p>
<p>Dish … no strong feelings on my part either way, though I felt for him as he pined for Lorie</p>
<p>I’d add Po Campo.</p>
<p>Lorena wore pants but it was Gus narrating at that point, not Call.
. </p>
<p>^^^Good call.</p>
<p>“Which of these characters draws your attention, and why?”</p>
<p>All of them! And I’ll add Call’s mare! She was beautiful, independent, hard-working, and spirited–hard to tame. She was also key in the transfer of leadership and coming of age to Newt, as well as the acknowledgement of Call’s paternity. She called attention to herself with the first bite–NOT an attractive trait for one’s horse. Are there any other riders here? The horses really matched their characters, from Call’s mare and Newt’s gelding Mouse, to Jakes smooth and fancy pacer. Wait, has this comment been made before, lol? </p>
<p>Also add Janey. Love SJCM’s description of Janey as the original Katniss </p>
<p>Hmm, which characters drew my attention?</p>
<p>Call. I liked his mysterious leadership qualities. Of course, we find out later why he’s so withdrawn, but I think he’s a strong, fair, decisive, steady leader.</p>
<p>The Hell ■■■■■. I liked her strength as well, and the fact that she had a mind of her own. But she was willing to submit to a rider who could both control her and respect her.</p>
<p>Gus. I didn’t like him so much at first, but of course he quickly grew on me. He too is a strong wise leader in his own way. He has a capacity for compassion which is utterly lacking in Call. His sense of humor, and his ability to read people are great assets to the Hat Creek crew.</p>
<p>The little bull. Another leader… am I detecting a pattern? He too refused to be subdued, even by the likes of a Montana bear.</p>
<p>Deets, although my reflections on him come uncomfortably close to the definition of the “noble savage,”<br>
</p>
<p>Janey. SJCM, she is a Katniss-like character, now that you mention it. I only wish she had had Katniss’ triumphant ending.</p>
<p>Clara. I’m not sure I ever warmed up to her, but she is unquestionably a fascinating woman, set in that time and place. I liked her daughters too; they seem like 21-st century little girls.</p>
<p>One memorable character was that strange buffalo hunter who took up with Elmira. He was a noble savage too, in a way.</p>