Lonesome Dove - August CC Book Club Selection

Mary13 · August 1, 2014, 12:57pm

Discussion Questions, cont.:

These last nine questions are from CCBC readers, i.e., us :). Thanks to all who sent me ideas!

5) Bad luck is repeatedly blamed as the source of all ills in the novel. At one point or another, almost every character shakes his head at a particular run of bad luck. Are the events in the story primarily determined by luck or are they the direct consequences of decisions made? Are the characters reluctant to take responsibility for their actions or is the emphasis on luck just a natural extension of the ever-popular gambling pastime?

6) There are other females in the novel besides Clara and Lorena. On the whole, they are competent, tough, and possessed of a mean streak a mile wide – and that includes the Hell ■■■■■. Do you think the women that we meet or hear about–e.g., Elmira, Louisa, Bolivar’s wife, Po’s wife, Peaches–are products of their harsh environment or does McMurtry have issues?

7) McMurtry had absolutely nothing positive to say about Native Americans. Why do you think that was?

8) There are some factual errors in the book. Encountering a “nest of snakes” in a river could not really happen. Pigs would never be able to walk along with cowboys and cattle on a trail drive…they have little stamina and are very prone to dehydration. Did people notice any other far-fetched elements in the story?

9) In the preface to the novel, Larry McMurtry writes that “the central theme of the novel is not the stocking of Montana but unacknowledged paternity. All of the Hat Creek Outfit, including particularly Augustus McCrae, want Call to accept the boy as his son” (p. 7). Do you agree? (Remember, we have established in prior discussions that an author is not necessarily an authority on his own work.)

10) In addition to parental love, romantic love plays a major role in the novel. Do you think the depiction of romantic love is accurate? Could July Johnson have been truly “in love” with Elmira? Or Dish with Lorena? What do you think of Clara’s response to July’s proposal?

11) Why does Gus consider his dying request to be his final gift to Call? Doesn’t the long journey contradict Gus’s advice to Call to “do better” by Newt and act as a father to him? Does Call do the right thing in taking Gus back to Texas or are Clara’s complaints valid?

12) In an interview in last month’s Mother Jones, McMurtry says (referring to the Lonesome Dove characters), “Would you like your menfolk to be that way? The Western myth is a heroic myth, and yet settling the West was not heroic.” Per the article, McMurtry has spent decades attempting to debunk the mythologies of the Old West. Do you think he succeeded in creating an anti-mythic western with Lonesome Dove?

Bonus question lucky #13) Ignoring for a minute (or forever) McMurtry’s sequel The Streets of Laredo, what futures would you write for the survivors of Lonesome Dove?

For those who want to explore further, ignatius found a readalong at the following site: <a href=“AmusedByBooks.com is available at DomainMarket.com. Call 888-694-6735”>AmusedByBooks.com is available at DomainMarket.com. Call 888-694-6735; as well as a study guide here: <a href=“Lonesome Dove by Larry McMurtry Summary / Study Guide FREE Analysis / Chapter Notes / Free Book Notes / Online / Download”>http://thebestnotes.com/booknotes/Lonesome_Dove_McMurtry/Lonesome_Dove_Study_Guide01.html</a>

SouthJerseyChessMom located the Mother Jones interview mentioned above: <a href=“http://m.motherjones.com/media/2014/05/larry-mcmurtry-brokeback-mountain-last-kind-words”>http://m.motherjones.com/media/2014/05/larry-mcmurtry-brokeback-mountain-last-kind-words</a>
and she also passed along this interesting article:
<a href=“Larry McMurtry's Dream Job”>http://www.nytimes.com/books/97/12/07/home/article2.html</a>

Mary13 · August 1, 2014, 1:00pm

I am going to dive right in with question #7:

7) McMurtry had absolutely nothing positive to say about Native Americans. Why do you think that was?

For most of the novel, McMurtry’s writing style is 3rd person limited – that is, he writes from the perspective of his characters and our information is filtered through their viewpoints. The mood of the times was overwhelmingly hostile toward Indians. Two quotes attributed to General Philip Sheridan (Indian fighter on the Great Plains) sum up the general attitude of the day:

*“The only good Indians I ever saw were dead.”<a href=“1867”>/i</a>
*“Let them kill, skin and sell until the buffalo is exterminated.”<a href=“1874”>/i</a>

I think the novel’s negativity toward American Indians is McMurtry’s way of reflecting the harsh reality. A more P.C. “Dances with Wolves” scenario would have felt false. There is some balance in the novel – we meet the laughing group of young Indians who guide Newt back to the herd, and the friendly Crow who accompany Call on part of his journey back to Texas.

The prejudice toward Indians does not reflect McMurtry’s own views. I just read his book, Sacagawea’s Nickname: Essays on the American West. Here are a few pithy quotes that give you an idea of where he stands:

Re Kit Carson: “Today it would be hard to scare up one hundred Americans who could say with any accuracy what Kit Carson actually did, and ninety-five of those would be Navajos, who remember with bitterness that in 1863 he evicted their great-grandparents from their homes and marched them to an unhealthy place called the Bosque Redondo, where many of them died.” (from the essay, “Inventing the American West”)

Re Andrew Jackson: In the battle of Horseshoe Bend, Jackson “was saved by Junaluska, a Cherokee, who had reason to regret his charity when his people, at Jackson’s insistence, were dispossessed of their ancestral lands and driven westward along the Trail of Tears. According to [historian James] Wilson, Junaluska even went to the White House to plead for more time—Jackson merely showed him the door.” (from the essay, “Chopping Down the Sacred Tree”)

Re the ongoing Hollywood disinterest in creating an accurate portrayal of Native American history: “A producer or studio may have the notion that they want a movie about Geronimo, but it will always develop that what they really want is a movie about the white guys who were chasing Geronimo—maybe one of them could be Brad Pitt.”

Sacagawea’s Nickname: Essays on the American West is great reading for history buffs.

I have to tell you that my most exciting find in the book came in the last essay—the title work, “Sacagawea’s Nickname.” Sacagawea was the very young Shoshone woman (age 16) who accompanied Lewis and Clark on their 1804 expedition. Her nickname appears only once in the Lewis and Clark Journals and once in the expeditionary correspondence. Guess what it is? Janey.

ignatius · August 1, 2014, 2:34pm

^^^^ Janey - perfect.

I don’t necessarily agree with the statement: “McMurtry had absolutely nothing positive to say about Native Americans.” I do agree with

I’ll add to that balance the compassion the reader - and the characters - feel when they come small groups obviously in need. Certainly, no one harms the boy who kills Deets: they could have killed the small tribe in retaliation. Gus, in particular, acknowledges Native American right to the land.

and later

ignatius · August 1, 2014, 3:26pm

Whoa - I’m not opposed to spoilers per se but the NY Times article - post #60 … no! I’m halfway through with Streets of Laredo and really really did not want the information imparted in the article. Deciding now whether I want to believe it or not (though I suppose somewhere deep inside I know it’s true) because it’s a serious serious spoiler indeed. I highly recommend skipping that particular article if you have any intention of reading Streets of Laredo - actually, even if you don’t.

Mary13 · August 1, 2014, 4:00pm

^ Frustrating! I didn’t even pick that up when I read the article–reading too fast I guess, plus Streets wasn’t on my radar at all. Thanks for the warning and sorry you had to take the fall for the rest of us. :(

mathmom · August 1, 2014, 5:18pm

Dern, not done yet! Hope to join y’all tomorrow!

PlantMom · August 1, 2014, 7:12pm

Yay! I’m so glad that August 1st has come, and thus the discussion of Lonesome Dove officially begins. I loved this book for so many reasons: the action, the characters, the lol funny lines (though it made me cry and I’ll confess to a few tears at the end), but also the historical setting of old cowboy Texas. I have a long line of Texan ancestry complete with a generation of cowboy g-grandparents and the mysterious Native American g^6 grandmother. In a genealogical stroke of luck, I met a cousin some years ago who had had the brilliant idea to record an oral history of his grandmother (my g-aunt) so that at least a few details of what it was like to live in the mid to late 1800’s Texas have been passed down. Reading Lonesome Dove prompted me to go back and read this piece of family history again and match up some of the settings.

Thanks for the info from Sacagawea’s Nickname: Essays on the American West, Mary! Regarding question 7 (McMurtry had absolutely nothing positive to say about Native Americans. Why do you think that was?), Like Ignatius, I think he (McMurtry) did forward a few not-negative ideas about the Native Americans–especially in feeding those that were hungriest and acknowledgement that the old west was originally Native American ancestral land. However, it doesn’t surprise me that in a book, especially one whose author has Texas ranching and pioneering history, a book written from the point of view of cattlemen and settlers, the prevailing sentiment about Native peoples with whom said book’s characters had been warring in an epic and bloody battle for land, food, and power would primarily reflect fear and loathing. And I have no doubt that these feelings, even based in ignorance, were true for the book’s characters. In our own Texas family, thoughts long held about our Native American relatives seem to have changed from sweeping their existence under the rug–just not speaking of this part of the family–to a full blown curiosity and pride in heritage–and it only took 150 plus years. Maybe McMurtry’s family has gone through a similar evolution. Gus’s attitude seems to reflect that.

buenavista · August 1, 2014, 8:17pm

I actually finished the book on time this month! Given my dislike of long books, I guess that means I liked it I got bored with the cattle-drive parts some of the time, but was engaged whenever a woman showed up.

I love the Janey/Sacagawea reference, Mary! I’ll have to look for that book.

Thanks to ignatius for the Texas Monthly link, and to SJCM for the one from Mother Jones. I recommend both. McMurtry sounds a lot like Call in that Mother Jones interview.

They didn’t kill the tribe, but they did kill the boy:

The balance toward Native Americans I liked best was with Clara and Bob–Bob was good to Red Cloud and helped the Indians when they needed food, and in turn Clara and Bob were left alone. Bob wasn’t described very positively anywhere else, so this gave me some appreciation for what Clara saw in him.

I had never read the book or seen the series–I love Robert Duvall, but it looks like the series came out when I was planning my wedding, so maybe that’s why I missed it. So I liked this online exhibition of photos and other things from the miniseries, part of the Lonesome Dove Collection you can visit at Texas State University-San Marcos:
<a href=“http://www.thewittliffcollections.txstate.edu/collections/lonesome-dove/film/online-exhibit.html”>http://www.thewittliffcollections.txstate.edu/collections/lonesome-dove/film/online-exhibit.html</a>

ignatius · August 1, 2014, 9:14pm

^^^ You are so right. Gus and Call did shoot the boy who killed Deets. I finished the book in June and am just now realizing that I’m going to have to rely less on memory [-X and more on taking the time to double-check facts. Thanks for the correction! Also thanks for the link. I have the Texas Monthly copy of Lonesome Dove that I linked to and it has many of the pictures. The online version doesn’t. I’ve tried to find a copy of the trail map that can actually be read to post for this discussion. I’ve had no luck so far. At least you can get an idea of what it looks like from your link.

Mary: I’m about half-way through with Streets of Laredo. The NYT article (bottom of post #60 - Again … DON’T READ IT) does explain the tone of the book. The playfulness, the joy that can be found in Lonesome Dove is lacking. Words used in the article “brooding, powerful” and “bleak and austere” fit. It helps to know of McMurtry’s depression. Still, shame on the NYT for printing how the book ends, for goodness sake. The NYT knows better - or should. Anyway, since I haven’t yet finished the book, I plan to assume that someone somehow got something wrong. Maybe facts should have been checked, just as mine should have been earlier.

NJTheatreMOM · August 1, 2014, 9:35pm

I liked this book very much for its wonderful, multi-dimensional characters (McMurtry is so good at creating characters!) and the lively, absorbing story.

However, I must admit that I did not absolutely adore Lonesome Dove the way I absolutely adored the first three novels in McMurtry’s Houston series that I read back in the 70s (Moving On, All My Friends Are Going to Be Strangers, and Terms of Endearment). I really should go back and read those books again. They were among my favorite novels, ever.

Question #8 (which I contributed) mentions factual errors. The impossibility of pigs going on a trail drive bothered me when I was reading the book. I had wanted to think that McMurtry was accurate in most of his details, and he clearly wasn’t. Something else I discovered was the fact that Montana was not pristine, cattle-less country in the 1870s. Cattle ranching already existed there at that time.

Mary13 · August 2, 2014, 12:50am

PlantMom, that is very cool about your Texan cowboy/Native American history!

Here’s a map–I don’t think it’s the one ignatius was referring to, and it’s not great, but it’s better than nothing: <a href=“http://cdn3.volusion.com/ukywp.mdcys/v/vspfiles/photos/HIST090-2.jpg?1405948691”>http://cdn3.volusion.com/ukywp.mdcys/v/vspfiles/photos/HIST090-2.jpg?1405948691</a>

True fans can get a 36 x 24 version on parchment and frame it for the livingroom wall : <a href=“http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lonesome-Dove-Comanche-Trails/dp/B008X5M3LS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1406939226&sr=8-3&keywords=Lonesome+dove+map”>http://www.amazon.com/Great-Lonesome-Dove-Comanche-Trails/dp/B008X5M3LS/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1406939226&sr=8-3&keywords=Lonesome+dove+map</a>

Here’s a snopes report to affirm the water moccasin fallacy mentioned in NJTM’s question (#8):

</a>

Funny that an author whose goal is to debunk myths ends up employing one in the action of the story.

ignatius · August 2, 2014, 1:03am

Don’t discriminate against pigs. They can be included on cattle drives.

ignatius · August 2, 2014, 1:18am

Personally I think I’ll just go with the water moccasin myth. My yard backs up to the bayou. I heard a rustling by the fence and saw a three-foot long snake. My cat went the opposite way and I went straight inside. According to my yardmen, it was most likely a cottonmouth. Plus, my neighbor killed a longer one getting some sun in the late afternoon. Once you meet one, myth or not no longer matters. In my humble opinion, where there’s smoke, there’s fire - or rather, where there’s one water moccasin, you get the idea. (I can be irrational about whatever I chose. :-S ) By the way, the movie Mud with Matthew McConaughey has that nest of water moccasins and they have a role similar to that of LD.

Mary13 · August 2, 2014, 2:28am

Perhaps I should be disappointed with McMurtry for incorporating a snake myth into the story, but I don’t care. In fact, I kind of like it, because I think of Lonesome Dove as a descendant of The Odyssey – a long journey in which dangers are confronted, strange and unusual characters are encountered, and basically, the impossible happens over and over again. I probably would have been okay with Gus wandering into a camp of Lotus-Eaters.

NJTheatreMOM · August 2, 2014, 2:42am

Maybe there were pigs way back when that were a tougher breed. The farm pigs that I became acquainted with at one point in my life never could have done any sort of marathon walking. :)

I still think that if someone drove pigs for long distances, it would have to be through non-arid territory where they would have a chance to rest and drink (and wallow!) regularly. Ohio to Philadelphia, yes. Texas to Montana, no.

ignatius · August 2, 2014, 2:44am

I think Tommy Lee Jones said it best in the Texas Monthly article:

I guess the snakes fall under the heading superstition.

And here is the map which was included in the same Texas Monthly article. If you want it enlarged drag it to your desktop and zoom in:

<a href=“http://i62.■■■■■■■.com/2dhfyxk.jpg[/IMG]”>http://i62.■■■■■■■.com/2dhfyxk.jpg

</a>

Done with much help from my daughter.

buenavista · August 2, 2014, 7:53am

Thanks, ignatius and daughter! I had found the map, but couldn’t figure out how to make it readable! Did you notice, Mary, that it refers to the various trips as " Odysseys"?

McMurtry has also compared it to Don Quixote.

mathmom · August 2, 2014, 10:51am

I thought of the Odyssey when I was reading it too, but Gus doesn’t have the sense to stop and stay with Penelope.

My brother’s comment which I think has a lot of truth to it, is that almost none of the characters seem to show much growth from their experience. Newt grows up, but Gus and Call in particular are stuck in their roles. I think that was sort of the point and the reason that Gus sends Call back to Texas where he belongs.

SouthJerseyChessMom · August 2, 2014, 11:48am

^^^" and, the reason Gus sends Call back to Texas where he belongs"

Another big fan of this book. Thanks to Ignatius ( and daughter ) for the map!
And, thank you Ignatius, for the study guide. I intend to read that ,once summer guests leave.

Mathmom, mentions why Gus sent Call back to Texas. Can others discuss this ending? I’m baffled. If Gus wants realize how important human bonds are, why send him back to loneliness and isolation? Was the trip supposed to give Call time to reflect?
When Gus told Call on his deathbed, I’m asking for you to do this, but it will be more for you than me,
Was he teaching Call that doing something for other people, has a great reward for oneself? ? Was it to realize the folly of the trip?

Help ???

SouthJerseyChessMom · August 2, 2014, 11:53am

Mathmom, regarding your brother’s comment about the lack of character’s personal growth.

Part of the beauty of this book, is an unabashed ( the good, the bad, the ugly) depiction. of
the Wild West, and " people are who they are" - as Oprah says pay attention to the red flags, people will show you who they are.
except Newt, who Mcnurty says. IS the LONESOME DOVE, and it’s his journey, we go on, it’s his coming of age story.
He’s quite the combination of genetics and environment-Call’s leadership, and Gus’s democratic " humanity". When Newt says to Deets, if I’m ever put in charge " the first thing, I’d do is raise your wages," is a glimpse into the new world emerging out of that racist, sexist world, Newt if the future, and his growth was substantial.

Regarding why Call and Gus are who they are,
Gus chose to go west. To leave his family, to explore, it was in his DNA.

Call’s parents died leaving him an orphan, he was thrust into a scary, wild world, order was critical.

Lonesome Dove - August CC Book Club Selection

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