Lonesome Dove - August CC Book Club Selection

NJTheatreMOM · August 7, 2014, 1:43am

Years ago, when a friend first turned me onto this author, and I reported back to him that I had discovered that I liked “McMurty,” my friend responded, “Ahem – it’s McMurTREE.”

mathmom · August 7, 2014, 1:50am

I too was sorry for Jake in the end, but also felt he probably deserved his fate. Sins of omission are still sins. Well in addition to being cleanly he was big on compliments.

SouthJerseyChessMom · August 7, 2014, 1:53am

^ whoops - guess I’m having problems with names ;)

ignatius · August 7, 2014, 2:23am

^^^ That’s okay. I obviously had problems typing a quote this morning. I could blame it on my daughter who needed a quick answer to something or my cat who kept climbing on the keyboard. Still, I know better than to post without reading over it.

I wondered when Jake would come up for discussion. Wouldn’t he hate to have gone unremarked for so long? Truthfully, I felt sorrier for Newt and Pea Eye, Call, Gus, and Deets, having to hang him. Like mathmom, I think Jake probably deserved his fate.

NJTheatreMOM · August 7, 2014, 2:28am

Not to belabor the subject of pigs (see posts #69, 71, 74 and 81), but here is an amusing item about a farmer who built a water slide for his pigs.

<a href=“http://www.petdoof.com/farmer-something-awesome-pigs-might-think-hes-crazy-gotta-see/”>http://www.petdoof.com/farmer-something-awesome-pigs-might-think-hes-crazy-gotta-see/</a>

SouthJerseyChessMom · August 7, 2014, 4:50am

Jake’s hanging,a gut wrenching moment, made extra painful for Newt to witness. ( I may have believed he was possibly Newt’s father at that point in the book) So Newt’s pleas for Jakes mercy were heartbreaking.

I blamed Jake for Lorena’s kidnapping, and his punishment seemed justified for his role in her fate, and Gus’s sarcastic remark, " by the way in case you’re wondering Lorrie is ok" …( or something like that) highlighted that point.

LasMa · August 7, 2014, 5:13am

The events leading to Jake’s death were of a piece with his life – drifting into relationships and situations of convenience, and lacking the courage and/or the moral compass to do the right thing when the right thing became obvious. I was struck by his final act, spurring his horse rather than making the others do it. I’m not sure whether he was apologizing, taking some responsibility at last, or simply sparing his friends.

Mary13 · August 7, 2014, 5:14am

LOL! Good thing you weren’t playing for the big bucks on “Jeopardy”–it took one contestant down:

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Re Jake, at least he died with a certain degree of honor, kindly bequeathing his horse to Newt, then spurring off to the Great Beyond:

It occurs to me that Newt is gifted with three horses in the course of the novel: the pacer from Jake, the sorrel gelding from Clara, and the Hell ■■■■■ from Call.

[edited to add: I see I cross-posted with LasMa re Jake’s final “spurring.” It was really his one noble act in the book, wasn’t it? Maybe not quite enough to redeem him, but admirable nevertheless.]

SouthJerseyChessMom · August 7, 2014, 12:29pm

I don’t want to derail the current momentum of discussion, but do want to explain my previous comments about not recommending to my 20 somethings and misogyny.

I think I appreciate the cycle of life and death, so prominent in LONESOME Dove, because I have lived long enough to have some perspective. I’m glad I wasn’t rereading the book, now at my advanced age ( just had a birthday with a zero) , I’m glad I went on Gus’s journey for the first time now!!!

The real reservation I have in recommending to my kids, is that the sexist/ racist society depicted in the novel is not something McMurTRY endorses, but it might be easy to miss that.
Mcmurty’s depiction of women in this book is one of Madonna or Whore. Women are objectified. All those men who put Lorena on pedestal afraid to speak who quiver in her presence , are not " in love".

The young girl Roscoe encounters, is held by the sadistic old man, abused, and sadly made me think of the monster in Ohio who recently was exposed, he captured the three girls for a decade.

The pushy woman who broke the chicken’s neck, demanding July do his duties, a stereotype.

Poor Lorena, a child herself, which we see clearly, when she joins Clara’s safe haven, and bonds with the younger girls. Lorena, again a kidnapped, sexually abused young girl, which sadly happens too often today. Kudos to McMurtry for explaining her previous abuse, most young prostitutes have been abused.

I think McMurtry minimizes the lives of “prostitutes"in the West, by using the term " poke”. Gus just wanted a " poke" Just too cute, Why does McMurtry never use the word prostitute? Again, " sporting woman" seems to diminish the women.

Finally, there is Clara ( loved this character) the mother goddess protecting all those who came to her, and seeing with clarity all their faults and strenths. Is she another stereotype?

My kids don’t have much time for leisure reading, so not recommending a book to them, isn’t a big deal, I also, did not recommend GONE GIRL, ( psychotic sadistic people) and hope they don’t read “50 shades of Grey”.
I would not recommend. Mark Twain, to anyone who wouldn’t see that he is criticizing the racist south, and wouldn’t want my kids to miss MCMurtry’s antimythic themes.

When I started the book, I was unaware of MCMurtry’s stunning credentials! Many times during the book, I said " this man wrote “terms of endearment” …the man wrote " brokeback mountain" wow! Amazing.

Finally, the very last line of the book solidified my view, " he did it for a woman, for a woman for that whore"

Mmmmmmm, bitter last taste, worst last lines in my opinion.

NJTheatreMOM · August 7, 2014, 1:19pm

I agree with this. The euphemism “carrot” was pretty cutesy too.

To my mind, however, McMurtry’s depth of characterization is so impressive and worthwhile that I would recommend this book to anyone, in spite of the characters’ opinions of women, Native Americans, etc. I think twenty-somethings are old enough to be able to perceive outdated stereotypes in fiction. When it comes to gender stereotypes, they might even be more sensitive than we are!

My younger son, age 23, doesn’t do a lot of leisure reading, and I am always on the lookout for things that might make him want to read more. Once we were in the lobby of a community theatre waiting for a play to start, and there was a display of used books for sale, one of which was McMurtry’s Texasvile. I said to my son, “This is a good author. I’ll buy the book for you and you can start it and see if you like it.”

While we were sitting in our seats before the play began, DS started Texasville…and then he barely put the book down for two days! He liked it so much that he read the sequel, too.

Lonesome Dove won the Pulitzer Prize. :)

mathmom · August 7, 2014, 1:24pm

I think because the book is mostly written in third person limited. We are always seeing events through the eyes of one character or another. I think all these euphemisms are a way for the characters (both men and women) to minimize the act. (Carrot was one of my favorite substitutions.)

Quibble about McMurtry being responsible for Brokeback Mountain. He only wrote the screenplay. I went out and read the novella by Annie Proulx after the movie came out and he barely changed a thing. It’s just beautifully written, highly recommend it .

I didn’t love the ending, but it’s not quite what you wrote in #168. It’s actually a little confusing to me.

Why does Call say “who”? There was only one whore in Lonesome Dove. We’re talking about Wanz. Is Call finally not avoiding names?

Dillard isn’t part of the Hat Rack group - I think by the end of the journey they no longer see her as a whore - or at least accept that she is off limits - having him use those brutal words is a shock, but also a reminder that one person at least is in a better place at the end of the book. A much better place.

NJTheatreMOM · August 7, 2014, 1:56pm

Regarding Jake…he seemed addicted to gambling. One of the interesting things about the book was the apparently huge role that gambling played in the lives of many men in that time.

Many of the cowboys gambled away their pay before they had even collected it. Kind of shocking.

ignatius · August 7, 2014, 2:21pm

NJTM: I just sent you a ridiculously long PM

Regarding the euphemism “carrot”: I couldn’t help thinking of the Bruno Mars hit “Runaway Baby”

Mary13 · August 7, 2014, 3:24pm

Happy 30th, SJCM! ;). On the one hand, I’m jealous of first-time readers of Lonesome Dove—there’s nothing like your first trip through a great book. On the other hand, events were shaded differently for me the second time through, and that was rewarding, too. I paused to reflect more over lines that I’m sure I blew through the first time around. These thoughts from Deets, for example, were so much more poignant to me after 30 years of parenting:

Re misogyny:

I agree. I think it’s important to distinguish that the book isn’t misogynist; the times were. PlantMom’s link about prostitution in the Old West (post #121) lays it out pretty well. They were actually called “sporting women” or “fair belles” or “nymphs du prairie.”

That life was cruel, but that was the way it was. McMurtry may have played fast and loose with the truth on small, colorful details (snakes and pigs), but he captured the gritty reality of women on the frontier and I wouldn’t have wanted him to insert an awkward or preachy 20th century sensibility into the mouths of his characters.

So would I. And at times, his characterizations offer some subtle and interesting commentary. For example, SJCM referred above to Janey—held captive, sexually abused, but nonetheless a survivor. Isn’t Lou (who makes a very brief appearance), the socially acceptable version of the same sort of captivity? Lou is the young wife of the horrible old man who attacks Jake. Jake kills him. Her response?:

Now, I’m not a proponent of putting two bullets into an abusive husband, but that smile doesn’t puzzle me a whole lot. Lou is a survivor, too. The women who made it were the ones who threw rocks with skill, wrung the necks off chickens, castrated horses and climbed on top of foolhardy deputies. They weren’t always “nice,” but neither was the world they lived in.

PlantMom · August 7, 2014, 5:02pm

NJTM wrote

And from Mary

Agree! Many of these men seem to have equated themselves with the randy and raunchy but noble Texas Bull. They weren’t in love, but in constant lust.

I didn’t rue Jake’s demise. Gus to Jake

Jake was the most selfish of them all.

Caraid · August 7, 2014, 6:08pm

I wasn’t a Jake fan. I got tired of his laziness and inability to take control of his life. His initial actions are responsible for a lot of the death and sadness in the story.

I was bothered by the presented perception and stereotypes of many of the characters in this story - woman, Native Americans, African Americans, and even men. It bothered me, but I attributed it to the timeline of the story. I thought Gus’ words often presented a different and better opinion of people.

Mary13 · August 7, 2014, 6:16pm

So interesting to juxtapose that with Call’s very similar “Who?” in mathmom’s post #170:

I agree with PlantMom that Jake’s “Who?” is pure evidence of his selfishness. In the end, to him, she was just a whore and little else. But what about Call’s “Who”? I want to give him more credit than Jake. I like mathmom’s interpretation, i.e., that Call no longer sees Lorena as simply Wanz’s house prostitute. He may not like her, or understand her, or call her by name, but he associates her with an entirely different world now—a different history—and therefore does not tumble immediately to the fact that Dillard is talking about Lorie.

LOL, Hat Rack group—for some reason the typo struck my funny bone and made me imagine a film version in an alternate universe, starring Dean Martin and Frank Sinatra as Gus and Call, Peter Lawford as Jake, and Sammy Davis Junior as Deets. The Rat Pack Hat Rack. Pretty sure that would be the worst movie ever. :)

buenavista · August 7, 2014, 7:02pm

I liked that Hat Rack typo, too! And Mary’s movie idea :-)

McMurtry also wrote a book called Books: A Memoir, about his life as a reader and bookstore owner; I’ve got it on audio now.

The women: What struck me was how in that world they needed men as protectors, and they didn’t have a lot of options if they didn’t find them, or if they tried and picked wrong. Lorena was 17 when her parents died–and she had been abused by her father. Elmira says she met up with Dee when she was “stranded.” Janey says “Ma died and Pa went crazy and shot himself”; the Indians ran off with her brother. Clara’s parents died, too, but she came back and ran their store, and that apparently gave her a little time for courting and choosing. She had been in school and maybe had more smarts than the other girls; even so, I imagine being alone would have pushed her to choose Bob for stability.

LasMa · August 7, 2014, 7:19pm

Caraid, I didn’t like Jake either, but I think we have to remember that without him, there would have been no cattle drive to Montana. He also caused the major plotline of Lorie’s kidnapping and everything that flowed from that. In fact, IIRC, Lorie wouldn’t have been on the drive at all without Jake.

Every story needs a bad guy. :-)

ignatius · August 7, 2014, 7:39pm

^^^ Ah, but Jake wasn’t the bad guy really. This line from the song (not book) Streets of Laredo works for Jake: “We all loved our comrade, although he’d done wrong.” That’s the thing about Jake - nobody wanted what came to pass.

Lonesome Dove - August CC Book Club Selection

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