Lonesome Dove - August CC Book Club Selection

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<p>That’s true! Also, Call was virtually incapable of calling Newt’s mother by name:</p>

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<p>He’s no better with Lorie, and Gus calls him on it:</p>

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<p>Call isn’t forgetful and he isn’t deliberately trying to be hurtful. But to call someone by name is a form of human intimacy, however minimal, and he just can’t do it.</p>

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<p>I feel like Call needs Gus the way a blind man would need a seeing-eye dog: Gus helps him navigate a world of perplexing human beings whom he does not understand at all. But what about the reverse? What does Call bring to Gus? (Maybe there is no obvious answer. I think that sometimes, in friendships as well as in romances, “we love who we love,” even if it defies logic.)</p>

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<p>Agree with Caraid. When last we seem them, there are 4 adults in that house. July and Lorena seem like a great match to me, and maybe Clara and Dish, although he’s so much younger than she is. But then, so is July. Think of the transformation for Clara during the short time we know her: When we first meet her, she’s alone with two little girls and a dying man. When we leave her, she has the two girls, her longed-for healthy baby boy, and 3 other adults to help out and for company. She must have felt like she’d been given a new lease on life.</p>

<p>Mary, I also wish we had seen a little more of Willbarger. He brought out an aspect of Gus which we didn’t see anywhere else (and probably Gus himself didn’t see anywhere else!). </p>

<p>I found Po Campo to be so interesting and mysterious. He’s one of the few characters whose perspective we’re never given, so we don’t know what he’s thinking except for the few times he tells the others, which is rare. He has a settling influence on the group, rarely seems afraid, and comes up with molasses-covered hailstones!</p>

<p>SJCM, here’s my take on Gus’ seemingly contradictory deathbed wishes for Call to carry out: The book is named after a town which the group leaves, what, a quarter of the way into it. I thought that was odd, but as I continued, I realized that this is one of those books in which a place becomes almost another character. The wish to return, the regret at leaving, is a thread that runs through the whole book, for many if not most of the men at one time or other. As they get farther and farther away, and the hardships and tragedies mount, I think Lonesome Dove becomes in their hearts and memories almost a loved mother – a place of safety, comfort, familiarity. Gus understood that Call had to return, and knew he wouldn’t do it without a reason, and he gave him that reason. He knew, too, that if Call made the promise, nothing short of death would prevent him from fulfilling it. </p>

<p>The other deathbed wish – that Call would claim his son – Gus knew could have been granted during the 6 months which Call would have to spend with Newt before returning to Texas. Call’s demons and ghosts prevented him from quite doing it, although in his way he did his best. </p>

<p>Someone upthread mentioned the Hell ■■■■■ as one of their favorite characters, and I agree! And she’s not just “Hell ■■■■■.” She’s always “THE Hell ■■■■■,” almost like a title. She’s as antimythic as the rest of the characters, but she also has their outsized flaws and strengths. I always loved when she popped up in the story.</p>

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<p>Calling his horse “the Hell ■■■■■” is the same as calling Newt “the boy”. It’s more a reference than a name.</p>

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<p>On page 20 it says - “The mare in question was known around town as the Hell ■■■■■.”. Call never named her. He definitely had name issues.</p>

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<p>LasMa, thank you for the terrific analysis of Gus’s last requests. I had forgotten about the six winter months that Call would be with Newt, but of course Gus wouldn’t have. </p>

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<p>Hmmm…I thought Dish would also make a good son-in-law. He’s only 22; he has time to wait around a few years for Sally or Betsey, doesn’t he?</p>

<p>Isn’t it funny how, despite SJCM’s admonition, we (or at least I) still want the Austen-ish happily-ever-after? Never have I more wanted characters to be happy, never has it seemed less likely. I have no plans to read Streets of Laredo. I prefer to live the fantasy. :)</p>

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I think you are onto something LasMa. Has anyone found anything about the name “Lonesome Dove”? Being a bird, doves do fly around from place to place. As far as the “lonsome” part of the title. All the characters seemed lonesome. Lonesome and on the move. Even Clara and her family were living in a place that wasn’t where Clara was from originally. The western settlers in general were like annoying pigeons that settle where they wanted.</p>

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<p>Mary: You learn a touch of happily-ever-after in Streets of Laredo, though I’m not recommending the book by any means. I’m nearing the end and had one harrowing read last night. </p>

<p>I’m going from memory here, so feel free to correct my responses. I don’t have the time to look back through the book this morning.</p>

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I agree except that you have to give Call a break on Deets’ first name. Deets himself didn’t remember it. If he had gone by Joshua or Josh, Call would have called him by that name. He did so for Pea Eye and Dish.</p>

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True and it seems to happen consistently with female names. Doesn’t he have some trouble with Clara’s name too - somewhere nearer the start of the trail drive? Gus calls him on it. Maybe?</p>

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Me too.</p>

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I agree. I can honestly answer most of the speculation about characters because McMurtry does within the first few chapters of Streets of Laredo. I’m being as careful as I can not to hint. However - and I don’t see how this can be considered a spoiler - McMurtry never mentions Po Campo in the sequel. </p>

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I agree, plus I think Gus just wanted to be buried in Texas.</p>

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Agree. </p>

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Me, too. Wasn’t there some discussion about Call not even naming his horse - Pea named her, didn’t he?</p>

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I think the two men respected each other. Gus has so-much untapped potential but he seems to reserve it for times of crisis. The Hat Creek Cattle Company belonged to both men but you know Call started it/worked it. You can say the same for the cattle drive to Montana. Gus gets half the earnings, yet Call is the force behind it.

Without Call, Gus may have stayed nothing more than a lovable gambler/drunk. I can’t see him moving on. Remember this post:

That’s Gus. Actually both men … but Call keeps it from defining him. If you think about it, should Gus get his half of everything when Call does most of the work? Lot of history/respect between the two men.</p>

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<p><a href=“Lonesome Dove - Wikipedia”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lonesome_Dove&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>I googled “Lonsome Dove sign” and this is what I got. <a href=“https://www.google.com/search?q=lonesome+dove+sign&client=firefox-a&hs=rp3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QjniU-O0I8OfyASToIKQBg&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=908#facrc=_&imgdii=FSscixnq8nTjPM%3A%3BQDU7tAsVlqPnNM%3BFSscixnq8nTjPM%3A&imgrc=FSscixnq8nTjPM%253A%3BhFn4HHNFhp2InM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbrojackson.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F09%252Flonesome-dove.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbrojackson.com%252Fculture%252Fthe-lonesome-dove-hangover%3B4000%3B1947”>https://www.google.com/search?q=lonesome+dove+sign&client=firefox-a&hs=rp3&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=QjniU-O0I8OfyASToIKQBg&ved=0CEUQsAQ&biw=1920&bih=908#facrc=_&imgdii=FSscixnq8nTjPM%3A%3BQDU7tAsVlqPnNM%3BFSscixnq8nTjPM%3A&imgrc=FSscixnq8nTjPM%253A%3BhFn4HHNFhp2InM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbrojackson.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2013%252F09%252Flonesome-dove.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fbrojackson.com%252Fculture%252Fthe-lonesome-dove-hangover%3B4000%3B1947&lt;/a&gt; It’s kind of fun to see! :)</p>

<p>I kept wondering what the Latin meant. I put the phrase in a Latin/English translator and got this - “grape clusters of living is different” I tried a different translator and got this - “grape is a grape variety of living”. There must be some connection to the story, but it’s not jumping out at me.</p>

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<p>I kept meaning to look up that Latin phrase, but kept expecting it to get explained sooner or later in the novel, but it never was. Thanks for reminding me I wanted to find out the significance, since it seemed likely there was more to it than just to show that Gus had been an educated man.</p>

<p>I don’t see Newt in particular as the Lonesome Dove.</p>

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I don’t think I would have given Newt sole ownership of that title either. It may be that moving Newt out of Lonesome Dove was best of all the gifts Call gave to Newt.</p>

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<p>From Mary13

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<p>This makes a lot of sense to me. Fruit in a bunch–bananas or avocados, for example–ripens quickly because of the emission of ethylene gas. The more fruit emitting this gas, the quicker the ripening process. Throw a plastic bag over the fruit, and the ethylene gas is absorbed by the plastic, and the fruit ripening slows. Separate the fruit, and ripening slows or even stops. Not only are the characters from Lonesome Dove journeying and changing with each other, but they only have the agent for change because they are together. To me, the Latin phrase also helps to answer the question about what Gus receives from Call. Call is certainly guided by Gus and all of his thinking, but Gus would have had no reason to leave Lonesome Dove without Call’s call to action. He never would have seen Clara again. He wouldn’t have had the adventure and pleasure of arriving in Montana. His relationship with Lorie would not have gone far. His drinking and contemplating from a chair on the porch or in the bar would have been enough for the rest of his life. Without the perfect assembly of characters this epic journey would never have begun. </p>

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<p>Thanks, PlantMom. Given all the tragedy in the story, my first gut response was to rue the fact that the group ever left Lonesome Dove. So many lives were lost in the journey, and there was so much suffering. But you’ve provided me with a different perspective. I’m reminded of the John Shedd quote, “A ship in harbor is safe, but that is not what ships are built for.”</p>

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<p>Great insight PlantMom. When Gus and Newt are out riding together in Montana Gus tells Newt -

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Gus often mentions (especially to Newt) that they may not all make it. That quote Caraid posted continues:

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<p>As for Clara and July: I think July is too much like Bob for Clara. When she was young and she wanted stability and family, but she got those things from her marriage–been there, done that. She also remembers she was lonely in her marriage and didn’t get much else. But she knows July is dependable, she understands him, her girls and Martin need him, and she can use him on the ranch. He’s also young, so she’s giving him the benefit of the doubt that he might grow into more of what she needs. But I don’t think she holds out much hope for that; she’s just stringing him along so he doesn’t leave.</p>

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<p>Regarding naming people-
The sign was such an important thing to Gus. He dragged it to Montany-
It summed up who he was, a man who wanted the world to know who he was, who identified with group,
a man who called people by their names, or in Deets case, honored him by giving him a first name.</p>

<p>The sign said who they were, and even humorously who they were not- “they did not rent pigs.”</p>

<p>And, most importantly the grape quote, beautifully explained by PLANTMOM, proclaims to the world that they are a bunch of guys, comrades, living and growing with each other. (The link below mentions this is a reference Juvenal
<a href=“Juvenal, Satires. (1918).  Preface to the online edition”>http://www.tertullian.org/fathers/juvenal_satires_00_eintro.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Didn’t Gus read the bible every morning? </p>

<p>Interesting that Call had to haul the sign back with Gus, like a cross to bear. Did Call ever get the message, that life is about connection? As Mary13 said, even " naming" people is a form of intimacy.
The quote was significant message, and kudos to Mcmurty for not translating that message. Left it up to the readers, </p>

<p>Interesting commentary about the quote, especially the misspelling -
<a href=“http://t.answers.com/answers/#!/entry/from-the-book-lonesome-dove-the-quote-uva-uvam-vivendo,4fd009674b672622b824625d/2”>http://t.answers.com/answers/#!/entry/from-the-book-lonesome-dove-the-quote-uva-uvam-vivendo,4fd009674b672622b824625d/2&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>More if interested - Mcmurty a man who owns thousands of books who taught literature-certainly familiar with Juvenal-
<a href=“Satires (Juvenal) - Wikipedia”>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satires_(Juvenal)&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Considering the focus on first names, and the importance of knowing/using them, it’s somewhat ironic that Jake Spoon gets himself into one hot mess on account of this:</p>

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<p>What did you think of Jake? Did he have any redeeming qualities (other than cleanliness)? I didn’t care much for him; nonetheless, I found his hanging at the hands of his old compañeros difficult to take. No matter that he was hot-headed, lazy and guilty of manslaughter (twice), I still pitied him in the end:</p>

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