Looking for a great fit LAC

College Search & Lists
781

Okay, I disagree with this, and here is why. If the net price calculator for St. Olaf showed she was going to need to take out federal loans, and indeed that is what is in their package, then she still needs to accept that offer unless you’ve had some significant financial change since signing the ED offer (parent losing job or business, serious illness in family, etc). It does not matter what another school offers at all. You don’t get to take the BEST offer. You get to take the offer that St. O makes – if it matches their NPC or is very close to it, then you have to take their offer. Finished. Done. No other school’s offer matters.

NO. It is NOT. She decided when she signed an ED agreement. You want to have your cake and eat it, too. That is why you should not apply ED if you truly want to compare FA offers and pick the best financial deal.

782

@Grinnellhopeful hasn’t done anything but try to find the best possible opportunity for her child. I can’t fault her for that or the decision to go ED2 with SO. She played the hand she was dealt quite well. If her D ends up with offers from both Earlham and SO and her D weighs them on their economies merits, who am I to judge.

Granted Applying ED might give a student some extra leverage, I Have always thought the “binding” ED contract to have very little teeth. It is a honor system, no different than Grinnel’s policy of “self governance” and it’s strength is based on the integrity of those entering into it. If a student feels that they have meaningful reasons to break that contract, then I don’t think a school has much recourse.

For the purposes of this case the bigger question is can you realistically visit both schools within the short window of opportunity (if SO is similar to other small LACs then they will want a deposit by feb 15) especially if you are relying on those schools to cover the costs of the visits.

@Grinnellhopeful is right to be excited as a parent and a little relieved

783

I still don’t think it works that way. If St Olaf’s package is less (but do-able) than Earlham’s, then your D has to go with SO. People just don’t back out of ED agreements. It’s not a thing. It is certainly not a thing when the difference between the ED package and another is only a few thousand dollars per year. In the scheme of a $250,000 education, having to take a little bit higher loan does not make the offer impossible. Hopefully, none of this will matter and your daughter will get the very best offer from SO. That being said, you still have no idea if it’s the best fit since you insisted on applying ED.

784

In terms of the honorable thing to do, if St. Olaf delivers an ED admission offer with an FA package that matches the previous estimate from its NPC, she should matriculate to St. Olaf, regardless of any other admission offers and FA packages from other colleges.

785

@ucbalumnus I agree with your statement. If the NPC is accurate she will honor her ED commitment, and should.

I don’t know how much more I can reiterate these are my thoughts not hers. And my D loves StO.

@homerdog This is the sticky point for me. Who decides what’s doable?

Again, our situation isn’t like others our resources are nil. Nobody is expecting a parent loan in these two schools in particular. The out of pocket at StO based on NPC is $210 a year.

Soooooo, the question becomes who decides what is a doable amount of loans for a 17 year old?

How do you even come up with a number like that?

I’m not even talking about a few hundred dollars in out of pocket or work study, I’m asking a somewhat hypothetical question regarding an doable amount of loans.

And I don’t know why there are a few of you that continue to hammer me about an ED agreement that my daughter signed.

The ED agreement that’s states she is allowed to apply and pursue the best FA packages until she has an acceptance and a FA package she can afford in hand from the ED school.

She and I both understand it. It seems that anytime she gets positive news about other schools, there is an incessant need to tell me that we are somehow being dishonorable by thinking about, considering them, and trying to leverage the best FA aid package we can. Because we need it.

I know for certain there is a different perspective when you have a zero EFC and it’s a family of 3-4 living off less than 24,000 a year, with no savings, retirement, stocks, etc.

And just because I really like the school doesn’t mean that my daughter would break her ED agreement. I feel like we’ve covered the ED agreement enough because there are a few of you that won’t let it go. I don’t really think it needs to enter into discussion anymore.

It’s not like she’s forgotten she is awaiting a favorable outcome from StO. It’s not as if she forgot she signed it. And I might add, she and I have both discussed with StO what we can and cannot do regarding her ED agreement.

It’s a little different when you don’t have resources.

I respectfully ask that further reference to the ED agreement and the nuances of such cease.
There is nothing that we have done that violates the ED agreement. We have always been transparent.

And quite frankly it’s hypothetical. We don’t know if they’ll accept her and we don’t know for certain what that FA package will look like if she is accepted.

We don’t need to be reminded she signed it every time we hear good news from another school.

I would love to get opinions when the package comes through if she’s accepted.

I will continue to aggressively help my daughter find the best financial package available to her until such time that we hear from StO. It would be irresponsible for me not to help her with that.

And IF she gets in and IF the FA package matches the NPC, we will probably reach out to the school, if she has a better package in hand and ask their opinion about what is proper or improper in regard to ED and affordability. If the amount of federal loans she is required to take factors into her affordability.

And maybe if one school formally offers a package that is less than StO before the StO package comes, IF it comes, it could be used to help get a better package at StO. I don’t know the answer to that question?

But our first point of reference for what is acceptable under ED and what is expected under ED will be with the ED school.

Do you really think we are trying to hide anything from them?

We will need their guidance if we are lucky enough to have options, and yes, I believe we might have options if the loan amounts vary. But I’ll check with the ED school to confirm when and if that happens.

I’ve also been trying to think ahead regarding what will need to be done if she’s accepted and the FA package is acceptable. How do I make sure every app is withdrawn properly, make sure there a no loose ends, that could come back and harm her. I’ll ask the school. They are the source for what is acceptable.

Why would we suddenly stop asking them?

As of right now nothing we are doing is in violation of the ED agreement or the spirit of the ED agreement. And it’s been communicated with the ED school who encouraged her to apply and pursue the best FA packages.

If you only want to chastise me and my D, it’s not helpful.

She hasn’t done anything wrong.

Never once did I say she should withdraw her ED agreement. Never once did I say she wanted to. What you have heard me express over the last day has been my relief about Earlham. And what I think a lot of people have heard me say over the last month and a half is that I really am drawn to this school for her. I know it will fit her personality, I know she’ll be nurtured, I know she’ll get a quality education.

There is no need for anyone to leap to assumptions regarding her ED agreement, we are not talking about that right now because has not been accepted.

And I’m allowed to have my own thoughts that are independent of hers. My own emotions, my own wishes. But we are not the same people. Any opinions expressed here are my own. I don’t speak for her.

786

I have read all 53 pages of this thread. Early on, I was rooting for OP and her daughter. At this point though, watching OP try to game the free money system, it simply makes me sad and angry. The pleas of ignorance are beginning to ring hollow.

787

@Grinnellhopeful

Just be patient. Wait and see what happens at Earlham. Then see what ED2 happens at StO.

One thing to consider…some ED schools do not offer free fly ins until the student actually accepts the offer of admission. But wait and see!

788

@pishicaca I’m not claiming ignorance about the easy process. And we are not gaming for free money. She is allowed to apply to schools, she is allowed to pursue the best financial package possible until she has her decision from her ED school. We checked with the ED school.

I am disheartened that you see it that way. But you’re entitled to your opinion. And I think you might be reading other people’s posts and attributing them to me. Never once did I say my daughter should pull her ED agreement. Not once. I don’t know if someone else suggested it but we did not.

789

@pishicaca I’m feeling the same way. This student will be getting a private college education for next to nothing. I still feel like the OP doesn’t get what a gift that is. People second mortgage their homes, get second jobs, do all sorts of things to make a college education possible for their kids. To get $250,000 education for $20,000 or $40,000 in loans is a dream come true for so many families.

790

@homerdog Why in the world do you think we don’t think it’s a gift? I think I’ve stated several times what a gift and how blessed we would be?

$20-$25,000 in loans for four years is gift!!!
Where did I ever say it wasn’t? Where have I ever expressed that we would not be so incredibly grateful if that happened?

I can’t take a second mortgage on my house, I can’t get another job, although I have considered closing my business and looking for another job. Did I have a lot of resources? Could I have done things as well as you did? Yes…I should have done better, I should have earned more, but I didn’t earn more.

And I have never earned substantial amount of money. I’ve never been a high earner. I am the only income in this household. And it’s not like my daughter did not work very hard in high school.

And really this is all based on you guys thinking we’re trying to pull out of an ED agreement? Who said that she was trying to do that because I didn’t say it. She wants to be in the agreement she is in. And if you both feel sick that she might get a quality education for not a lot of money, I don’t even know what to say about that. I don’t even know what to think about that. It’s not like I’m stashing resources or taking vacations or living high on the hog. I’m legitimately worried about paying my gas bill this month.

Is your issue with me or is your issue with us coming from less the moderate income and maybe possibly being blessed with a great FA package from a great school that you have been pretty clear for weeks you didn’t think she had a chance at?

Maybe you don’t want to see kids that are less advantaged have a chance?

But nowhere today or yesterday did I say she should pull out of her ED agreement. The only thing that I ever said was how relieved I was that there was a great school in her pocket if she didn’t get in to another school that would do a good job meeting need.

791

@Grinnellhopeful, based on what you are writing, I really, really encourage your daughter to contact St.O and request that her application be evaluated as an RD application.

There’s nothing wrong with looking at the Earlham acceptance and FA and realizing that this might be the best outcome. The problem is that as much as you are insisting that you intend to abide by the ED rules and that all you are doing is relaxing in the knowledge that your D has a viable, make that wonderful, affordable option, you are also saying things like who’s to say what’s workable? and at our income level, even a small difference in aid is significant. That sounds an awful lot like someone who is trying to rationalize her way out of a binding ED agreement.

Remember that ** you ** determined what was “workable” when ** you ** signed off on the ED agreement. We don’t need to substitute our judgment or make that evaluation for you. If the NPC was acceptable to you then, it’s acceptable to you when the FA comes in at that level ** regardless of what Earlham or any other school offers. **

And ** you ** decided that the small differences in aid would not affect the ultimate decision when you signed off on the ED application. So if you are now saying that small differences in aid make a big difference to you, ED was never the way to go.

Listen, we all learn throughout this process. The good news for you and for your daughter is that there is still time to benefit from what you have learned. If you realize at this point that the offer from Earlham might be worth declining St. O from a financial perspective, then by all means contact St. O ASAP and simply ask that the application be considered as an RD app. Explain that the financial constraints are such that you realize that an ED application is unwise. Maybe it will even get them to consider awarding her a more generous package.

792

I think OP is doing what a lot of people do. The system is set up to allow ED (or ED2) and still send in applications to other schools. If those other schools get their acceptances out before the ED decision is issued, the student can then compare the financial aid. If the ED2 school wants to prevent that, get the decisions out early or don’t take ED2 applications. If Earlham wants to pay for a fly in visit now, it can do that before the ED2 decision comes out on 2/1.

That is the game, and we didn’t set the rules. The schools set the rules.

What I don’t think the OP will be able to do is compare the possible St O offer after a visit. I don’t think St O will offer a visit before the response is due. I could be wrong and StO might say “Take your time, come visit. It’s Feb in Minnesota so come on up, feel for yourself what we mean by 10 below with a wind chill of -30. It’s fun.” She’s going to have to give a thumbs up or down without having seen the school.

793

@Grinnellhopeful - some tough love here. I think if you want people to stop questioning whether you might be trying to game the ED system you need to stop saying things like,

The answer is that that is a question that needs to be asked and answered before a student signs the ED agreement. She is not supposed to decide retroactively that she can only afford $3,000 a year in loans because another school has offered that in her package.

The answer is that she is obligated to accept the SO offer. She (and you) knew up front what the SO offer was likely to be, and $5,500 is not an unreasonable amount to ask a kid to take on in loans. SO says right on their website that they won’t sweeten the pot if a family is not fully satisfied by the FA offer, unless there has been a major change in financial circumstances since the student submitted the FA forms.

The exit clause for ED agreements is meant for situations in which the school doesn’t cover full need or the FA offer is unexpectedly low. If SO came back saying the parent contribution would be $5,000 a year you would be justified in breaking the agreement but you can’t ask them to do better than what they consider covering full need.

794

I don’t think borrowing $27000 is next to nothing. A very good deal, and less than most other students are paying, but not nothing.

795

You can CHASE other acceptances and FA offers. But you CANNOT just decide to accept one of them because it is cheaper. I think you have misunderstood the ED arrangement. What they are trying to say is, don’t stop applying because you might not get in here, and you want to have other offers in hand in case you don’t get accepted ED. It is NOT saying that you are free to compare those offers to the ED offer and just decide to pick the cheaper one.

That is very easy once she gets to that point where she is accepting an ED offer for sure. She just emails the admissions office at every other school, says she has decided to attend elsewhere, thanks them for their consideration and asks to withdraw her application from their school. That is all that is needed. It is best to do it politely – you never know where a kid might want to transfer to later on.

796

@3girls3cats I do appreciate your post. But she doesn’t want to withdraw her ED application. Just because I am very happy with the potential outcome at Earlham doesn’t mean she wants out. She went ED at StO for many reasons.

I don’t know where I conveyed that she wanted out or that StO wasn’t her first choice?

Me asking what is considered doable is a legit question.

Also, what people are failing to realize is that we did (me specifically) ask FA and the AO about financial concerns before submitting ED. StO and our family have communicated about the importance of a strong package. They have all of our financial documents they know what our situation is.

I personally think it’s reasonable to borrow 5500 a year, and she would be so blessed if that is her outcome anywhere. Because it’s not at most schools we’ve heard from.

I asked a hypothetical question regarding what if a school actually didn’t require her to borrow 5500 (hypothetical because it’s highly unlikely she wouldn’t be required to borrow that amount at any school).

She applied ED at StO because it is her first choice if the FA package is truly a reflection of what her package will look like.

Again, my relief and happiness about E are not indicative of her desire. She applied ED because it would be a dream come true if that package matches the NPC.

But we can rest a little easier knowing another affordable solution is there if she isn’t accepted. It willl also soften the blow of rejection. My first choice is not her first choice. We are different people.

797

I agree with the above post for different reasons. I’m just reiterating our experience. A school can look totally perfect on paper, online etc. And I get the choir stuff truly…mine is a conservatory level cellist/classical music/orchestra nut. St Olaf on paper is a perfect fit…she did not feel comfortable there. You hear this all the time…from other parents…great fit on paper but thumbs down on visit. RD gives you more time to see which feels right, really compare offers, get flown out without having already accepted ED with no choice. From how you have described your daughter (and I have one similar) it seem like fit would be absolutely critical. Please think about it!

798

@twoinanddone Our family is not in the “donut hole” but MANY families are. Those families also may have no savings and income that just covers their modest family expenses. Yet, they may have EFCs closer to $20-25,000 regardless and have little way to make that work. Those families cannot send their kids to a $250,000 private school.

I understand that the OP wants options for her daughter. I just think ED is not the right way to go. It’s not the way it works. It’s playing the ED game to get into the school and then trying to bargain. Many families would like do that. We all know that ED acceptance rates are higher than RD. So, who wouldn’t want to submit their app ED to get the boost and then “compare” offers. But that’s not what ED is. Maybe I’m just taking this whole story too personally. We are not letting our son ED anywhere because we want to compare merit offers. Is he giving up acceptances because he isn’t applying anywhere ED? Possibly. For anyone to submit ED but not be sure they would accept is wrong.

I honestly do want the best for the OP’s daughter. And that’s why I think applying ED sight unseen is not right. How can you make a decision as to where to go to college having never been there? Even if kids don’t visit prior to acceptance, many kids in the RD round will visit schools after acceptances to make a decision. Every single bit of advice I’ve gotten is to NOT ED somewhere without visiting first. The OP has been given the advice to not go ED many times now. And I know she doesn’t want to revisit that. So, I’m done for now. I hope D gets into SO and gets a good offer. I hope it’s accepted and that she loves her time there.

799

Ok, fair enough @Grinnellhopeful. I get that St.O is her first choice and that you guys can swing it as long as the package comes in as expected. I also get that you have conveyed to St. O that even a small uptick from what the NPC shows might make the school unaffordable. That’s all fair. It’s also completely understandable that you are relieved and happy to know that she has an excellent second choice if the first doesn’t come through.

My reaction was to the post asking what’s workable and how it differs for each family. Sure, that’s true but not when you’ve signed an ED application and know the NPC. I have seen the ED system gamed on these pages over the years and it’s pretty infuriating to watch. I am glad you are not following in those footsteps.

800

To be fair, @homerdog, it is not out of line to ask for a review of an ED FA package to see if it can be improved with another “comparable school” package in hand to show them, though. If you think somehow they did not have full financial information, and there is additional info that under their FA calculation model might give you more aid, THEN it is okay to ask for a review. Or if the offer is way off from the NPC, asking why is certainly appropriate.