I also want to mention my H is a Presbyterian minister. I was a Director of Christian Education in a different Presbyterian church than where he served. So until they were old enough to stay home by themselves, kids had to go to church with either mom or dad since we both worked on Sunday mornings.
When S was “of age” to do confirmation class, he wasn’t sure if he wanted to go through with it. He read some books on atheism but didn’t agree with them. He did end up going through confirmation class, and stayed involved in church/youth group while he was still home. He didn’t attend church in college.
He is married now and his wife is of a different faith and she is very observant. She wanted him to convert to her faith, but he declined.
A neighboring Methodist church to one where my H served had an interesting experience - they had a large confirmation class, and at the end all of the participants refused to join the church based on recent decisions about LGBTQ inclusion.
The help I find here even when I stray out of the college admissions lane is amazing. I’m not going to address every comment, but every comment has been helpful. Thank you.
The temp is going to get turned up a bit when W checks her email, because she has one from the assistant pastor inquiring about D’s absence last night for the first official class. I have been told that is my responsibility to deal with. I am not looking forward to that but need to get it done. Is it bad that I’m hoping they aren’t masking? It would make a very convenient excuse to not go. I do know they had a more fun activity outside of the church (but indoors) a few weeks ago that D attended. She was one of very few wearing masks (suggested but not required in our state). It didn’t do anything to help D’s attitude about the church when adults and kids alike are ignoring mask protocols.
I don’t know what Sunday services post-Covid are like, as far as social distancing and masking. I don’t mind the assistant pastor who will conduct service occasionally, but can’t stand the main guy. Since he took over a few years ago our attendance has plummeted, and I haven’t been there since Covid. W really likes and gets comfort from the structure of going every Sunday and other things @blossom mentioned. But even she is struggling with this guy. It didn’t help that the old pastor was really charismatic and progressive. There has been a big leadership change over the last 5-6 years, it started at the youth group level and now is different at the top too. The people and things that drew us in aren’t really there anymore. We started going on Sundays because her brothers were there every Wednesday night anyway, but that program has completely changed and not for the better. W has mentioned more than once she would like to go “church shopping”, but didn’t want to do it right before D was confirmed. I guess that might get opened up again, who knows.
I think overall though this is going to be a good thing. D said last night that she would rather do the research herself, but I’m not going to go along with that. Actually this is something I find fascinating, so I’m looking forward to doing it with her. I think if we start out with something unrelated to Christianity she will be more on board and less thinking that this is a backdoor way to convert her. I’m guessing we both learn a lot, plus I need an excuse to spend time with her anyway. She is one who would hide in her room all the time if I let her.
Is there a faith or denomination on the planet that does not have to deal with teenagers opting out of their family’s traditions?
I’d go with honesty in dealing with a religious leader- whether progressive or not. A- kid is reluctant to commit, having some theological issues or questions. B- not following Covid protocols is a major issue/turn-off.
Ball is in their court as to how to proceed. The Rabbi of my synagogue meets with kids in parks, outside Starbucks (no more inside drinking since Covid), taking walks around the block, socially distanced and in masks. Ice cream on your patio-- you supply the patio, he brings the ice cream. There is nothing you could tell him about a kid’s pulling back/withdrawing/lack of interest that he hasn’t heard a hundred times before. And he stresses (not just to kids) that God doesn’t hang out inside a building- God is wherever you find a way to repair a broken world.
Let your pastors do their job??? Even hearing one of them say “You absolutely should go explore other faiths” might be affirming for your D!
I agree the social relationships play an important role for the kids. That can initially draw them in and then keep them going. That age is young to be making final (specific) decisions about faith, but yes, about community (in and out of the church) and service to others.
I guess you have to decide whether you want her to learn about other religions or start to examine her own positive beliefs (not just rejecting the “church” structure.) At that age, I was pantheistic. We all do have something we believe in. It may start as simple as our sense of ethics or “principles.” Or trust.
When I would ask my girls, what do you believe (in some form, not geared to tradtional church tenets,) they’d both shrug. But they got the message loud and clear about ethics, empathy/compassion, doing on behalf of others. Vigorously, I’d say. Not perfect. It doesn’t end with confirmation.
One’s an atheist, but the principles are there and I do credit “church” for helping them in their own journey, in more ways than can be easily listed. We try to do our best.
I agree! In fact, I am always a little mystified when acquaintances who are very into their faith have kids who go along and become just as public in their faith. IMHO, I am suspect of anyone who does not have doubt at some point in their life. Not just about religion but about anything. It shows that you are truly examining what you believe or hear, rather than just marching along.
We had people who said to us, about our D, “well, we wouldn’t allow that in our house. Our kids. know they have to go to confirmation.” Well la-di-da for you!
I could write a book about the kids I was close to in college who never expressed a single doubt until they moved out of their parents house. And then- WOW. Rebellion while you’re at home- sleeping late instead of going to church. Skipping the church sponsored service project to do a hunger walk with your friends or a coat drive for the homeless.
Rebellion once the kid moves out? Sky is the limit… I say- embrace a kid expressing doubts!!!
Also Presbyterian. Our specific church moved confirmation to 9th grade because they thought the maturity level was better, but it is a serious commitment of time. However all youth are told they don’t have to join at the conclusion of the year and each year they invite others who didn’t attend a confirmation class before to join in.
Our church is just now bringing activities back and are very serious about masks and social distancing. I like the idea of using covid time to encourage your D (and maybe whole family if your church is not feeling like home anymore) to watch services from other churches, synagogues, etc since so many are online. Something might grab her.
Doesn’t sound like she really connects with pastoral staff or I would suggest just a one on one conversation. But in the end, you can join a church later in life without confirmation class.
I will say though that our confirmation classes do focus on what is means to be Presbyterian specifically more than world religions. Encouraging her to read/explore if she is interested is good. Through her life she will be in situations in college and work where it is nice to truly understand the significance of what your friends and co-workers believe and what different holidays mean.
Is any of this really W vs. D because, you know, teenagers, rather than specifically religious? That is worth thinking about too. What was the tone of the email from the minister? If it is just “Hey, class has started, and these are the days/times/places.” well then you’ve been informed, and no other action is strictly required.
Lastly: We are living through a pandemic and the kid saw that no one else was wearing masks. That alone is good enough reason to skip confirmation classes. And if W is going to church on Sundays in person, then she needs to be following the protocols for exposure in an enclosed space, and you need to find her some N95 masks to wear there.
My husband, a Church of the Brethren pastor, says all you really need to say to the associate pastor asking why your daughter was absent for the first session:
Hi Pastor,
W, D, and I have discussed the confirmation class and have agreed that D will not be attending confirmation this year."
Sincerely,
dadof4kids
And that is that. You don’t owe them reasons, excuses, or explanations, just that she won’t be attending. The pastor will wonder why and may ask you why. That doesn’t mean you have to answer if you don’t want to.
Another thought - could this somehow be a manifestation of W’s anxiety on some level?
When my D was questioning and then refusing to go to church, my mom became very upset. She told me that her faith was so important to her and it helped her thru some really difficult things in her life and that she was really worried about how D would get thru tough times without a faith life.
IN other words, she was creating tension because of her own fears.
Also, could W be worried “what will the other parents think?” As I mentioned above, I did get some comments that ticked me off, “Why wasn’t D at confirmation? The kids have SO much fun!” Or “I would at least make her sit through it and she can change her mind when she is 18” or some other MYOB nonsense. W might be worried that your child’s reluctance to go to confirmation somehow reflects on her (W).
@blossom There isn’t really a relationship between any of the pastoral staff and our family anymore. There used to be, especially at the youth level. S19 wasn’t particularly religious, but developed a close relationship with one of the youth pastors. That guy was great at meeting kids where they were at on their faith journey, and being supportive. S19 missed a lot of his “required” activities due to his sport. I’m sure the pastor wasn’t thrilled that we weren’t prioritizing Wednesday evenings and Sundays, but he never gave my son or me a hard time about it. There was just a lot more mutual respect, and a “we will take you whenever we can get you” attitude. The current leadership is more “we tell you what to do and expect you to follow our instructions”. W was pretty involved in a church committee a few years ago and actually did quite a bit of work for it, but couldn’t take it anymore once the new pastor took it over and dropped it. I’m sure they have lost other volunteers as well. Although I’m sure some people like the more authoritarian approach. It doesn’t work with my family though.
Absolutely. They have the stereotypical willful mom/willful teen daughter relationship. D21 never really had that for which I am grateful. Sometimes I think they are fighting only over trying to get the other to admit they are wrong.
However, even though that background probably makes things more combative than necessary, there is a legitimate philosophical objection. D is one of the most ethical people I know. She has a moral compass that is less flexible than mine certainly. She has lost friends over sticking up for the outcasts in school. But she does not base it on religion. She is extremely intolerant of people who are intolerant, and she sees quite a bit of that eminating from churces unfortunately.
The email was not confrontational at all. But she had asked a couple of weeks ago if she should order materials for D and we told her yes. So I do feel like I need to give a bit of an explanation of why things changed from 2 weeks ago.
W is a bit worried about what other people think, particularly her family (mostly devout Catholics, who aren’t thrilled we aren’t raising our kids Catholic but do get some comfort that we are at least having them involved in a Christian church). Also she did bring up the fact that I agreed when we got married that I would be supportive of raising them either Catholic or in a similar faith tradition and not letting them opt out until they were adults (she could see the writing on the wall before I did I guess). I don’t think she feels that way anymore, but she does feel some guilt that she isn’t raising her children in a religious tradition (darn Catholic guilt!).
Overall she cares more that D is a good person, and I think on that level we are succeeding. So whether she is doing it because she thinks it makes God happy or just because she thinks she has a responsibility to do good in the world, the reality is that she is hellbent (if you will pardon the phrase) on making the world a better place. Which is a good thing.
Regarding the late rebellion, I saw it several times in college. Usually the kid who would smoke anything, drink anything, sleep with anyone was either a preacher’s kid or homeschooled. I also knew kids with that background who followed in mom and dad’s footsteps. But some of the ones who fell off that path fell off HARD.
Lol. Personally I think that attitude is a great way to usher in the issues I mentioned in the previous paragraph. If the moral compass isn’t internal but simply following an arbitrary set of imposed rules, what happens when the enforcer of the rules goes away? Anything goes? Again, that doesn’t always happen, but we have all seen it happen when kids are finally on their own, and seem to act like they have 18 years of missed bad decisions they need to make up for in the next month.
Credo Chorus–A comparison of religious beliefs. (It’s still on Amazon)
Great book which summarizes the beliefs of the major denominations (Lutheran, Catholic, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons etc.) plus the world’s major religions (Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism plus maybe others) I have it still because it is a super reference. It’s geared for middle/high school students. I still drag it out once in a while. It’s by the Lutheran press but totally objective in presenting the different religious beliefs.
Don’t expect it to persuade your D to your way of thinking but it is great to have the knowledge no matter who you are.
As others have mentioned when kids hit college all bets are off. There is a lot of exploring. When I was a freshman in college the Sunday school class was using the Credo Chorus book (my boyfriend taught the class so I naturally went too!)
The college aged church group I was in spent several weeks attending different churches of different denominations. We hit a different one every week. It was really eye opening for someone who only had attended one denomination growing up. (Maybe you should do this too–go church shopping–find somewhere you ARE comfortable–the willingness to do this is a real life lesson for your D and maybe stretch your life too).
In addition to the mainstream religions/denominations however are also a great number of cults. I was warned to NOT go to some churches or do any social activities associated with them. It’s important in a college setting because kids ARE exploring more and wanting to belong.
So in addition to learning about the traditional churches I’d also be teaching about the tactics of cults to draw in members. There are several good sites that define a cult and they have very similar practices to draw in and keep members.
I hadn’t thought about that @gouf78 but that’s a good point. I don’t think she is really in a seeking mode, she is perfectly content to be agnostic. But it is a good idea to give her some defense against getting drawn into a cult while we are talking about religion.
At one point many years ago, I stumbled across a website that had a ton of information about many of the worlds religions, major and minor. For a while that was my go to time killer. I learned quite a bit about Zoroastianism, which I found particularly interstesting because most of the monotheistic religions can trace back to that, albeit not as directly as Islam and Christianity flow naturally from Judiasm.
That was many years ago, and I of course didn’t set a bookmark (it probably predates me using Chrome, which has been a really long time). Anyone happen to know what I am talking about? I can’t seem to find it. Of course it is possible the website died 10 years ago and doesn’t exist anymore.
Google “Religious studies library guide” and you’ll get hits from many universities.
Tulane has “recommended websites” for comparative religions–perhaps you can find one there. Warning–this can turn into a real rabbit hole!