<p>Dude, selectivity and the categories of excellence you mentioned go hand-in-hand. If you want something on the level of Oxbridge and the Ivies, you’re going to have to sweat for it.</p>
<p>WhiteKnights, you should check of the the University of Michigan-Ann Arbor. It has top 10 departments in Political Science and Engineering and excellent Law school placement. </p>
<p>I should mention that Michigan is selective, but given its size, it is probably going to be more forgiving than many of its peers.</p>
<p>ilovebagels, Oxbridge isn’t really selective international wise…It is just REALLY REALLY Expensive.
You can get into Oxford on an interview and AP scores alone. </p>
<p>Why do selectivity and excellence go hand an hand?
Money and Excellence go hand and hand more or less.
The $36 Billion in endowment money makes Harvard excel, not the fact that it has 1500 accepted students.</p>
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<p>For an American student, Oxbridge (especially Cambridge) is actually VERY selective since only a handful of U.S. applicants are admitted each year fresh out of High School. </p>
<p>Keep in mind that secondary school standards in the US are MUCH lower than in most European countries and, therefore, top UK universities (not only Oxbridge, but also LSE or Imperial) will give little weight to an American HS diploma. Hence, the emphasis on AP exams as opposed to High School GPA . The LSE for example [explicitly requires](<a href=“http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/studentRecruitment/country/usapage.htm”>http://www.lse.ac.uk/collections/studentRecruitment/country/usapage.htm</a>) U.S applicants to take at least four, preferably five AP exams in subjects relevant to their intended course of study, with scores 4 or 5. </p>
<p>On the other hand, Oxbridge is no more expensive than an Ivy-like education. In fact, it is actually cheaper to study at Oxford or Cambridge than at HYP, not least because most undergraduate degrees in the UK can be obtained in 3 years only. Exceptions are Oxbridge engineering, which is a 4-year course, and medicine, which requires 6 years of study (including 3 years of clinical school). </p>
<p>PS: Four-year courses are also becoming now the standard for math and hard science degrees at Oxbridge, but 3-year options are still available in most of those subjects.</p>
<p>In terms of selectivity, its easier for an American student to get into Oxford/LSE than for a European one, since students from the US have to pay full tuition. Yet still, the LSE has the highest selectivity out of all universities in the world, and Oxford/Cambridge are not far behind. However, if you are looking for the qualities you mentioned, I personally believe that an education at a European university can give you more of that, especially in terms of intellectuality. Only UChicago (for the undergraduate degree) is comparable to what you might get out of there.</p>
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<p>Harvard was excellent long before it had a $36 billion endowment, when it was selective and therefore a goal for the best students and faculty. Selectivity definitely matters more than wealth.</p>
<p>Show me a school with a multibillion dollar endowment that isn’t selective.</p>
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<p>Again, I don’t know about Oxford/LSE, but, as far as Cambridge is concerned, many North American applicants are familiar with the famous [Pembroke College quote](<a href=“http://www.pem.cam.ac.uk/admiss/ug/overseas/highschool/index.html”>http://www.pem.cam.ac.uk/admiss/ug/overseas/highschool/index.html</a>) on the likelihood of a U.S. student being admitted fresh out of High School.</p>
<p>Its true that the prestigious UK universities pose very hard hurdles for acceptance. Yet if you are a very good student, have taken many AP classes and are interested in politics/economics, stats say that American or overseas students in general have a slight advantage. That doesnt make admission easy though…</p>
<p>btw, I completely agree with you that US high school standards are much lower than european ones. Thus its easier for Europeans to study in the US than vice versa</p>
<p>It is still an option, but it is much more reasonable for grad or post grad work. </p>
<p>I personally like Oxbridge for the pure history behind the universities. A 800 year college instantly gets points…But to mention the Campus is breathtaking. It would be mind boggling to go to a university that heroes like Newton,Bacon,Darwin…etc studied at.<br>
It would be a HUGE honor.</p>
<p>I like the Oxbridge “feel” which carried over into the Ivies decently.</p>
<p>I am not sure I understand your question. If its in the elite of prestige, its almost always in the elite selectivity rating as well. Hard to separate those two. HOWEVER, there are reasonable compromises:</p>
<p>Fordham is where my D goes. Its faculty is about 70% Ivy League credentials. Its in New York, which speaks for itself. Its hugely respected academically and its graduates get super jobs or go onto superb graduate/law/medicine programs. It is strong in all the areas you mention. Its a classic college campus while being in one of the greatest cities in the world. It has a 40% acceptance rate. </p>
<p>But there are many private and state schools that fit your definition. Flagship state schools like UNC, Michigan, Maryland, Wisconsin, Washington, Florida, Georgia, Virginia, SUNY Binghamton can also fill your bill. Particularly if you are in-state. Privates like Emory, Furman, Tufts, BC, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Mount Holyoke, Grinnell …on and on…many many fine schools.</p>
<p>U of Chicago does not have an engineering department, although it is very strong in physics and everything else you are looking for. Note that the mean SAT scores for accepted students are in the top 15 and GPA mean scores are somewhere around 3.8, so it is pretty hard to get into. As mentioned before, this years acceptance rate was around 27% and it should get even harder in coming years as Chicago is starting to accept the common app this year. Among academic circles and businesses it is considered one of the best schools in the world, coming in around 9 in general world rankings and the same for U.S. news and world reports.</p>
<p>“I like the Oxbridge “feel” which carried over into the Ivies decently”</p>
<p>Have you ever been to Oxford or Cambridge? You have to get used to the feeling there. Its nothing like an ordinary student life that you would expect at other top universities. Im not saying it is bad (of course not!), but the exclusiveness and very formal daily dinners are not everyones taste. In the UK, you have Imperial/LSE with a different style of education, but at the same level (at least for LSE). Its important to know what you want.
I agree with you with regards to the incredibly long history and the famous alumni</p>
<p>Does anyone have any anecdotal experience with life at Oxbridge?</p>
<p>My sister attended Homerton College, Cambridge, and I have friends who have attended Oxford. Homerton is a newer college with a higher percentage of state school attendees, arguably lending a different feel and is perhaps not so ‘formal’. Oxford and Cambridge are large universities, at least by British standards, so individual experiences are incredibly varied. Also, each college has a different feel and set of traditions. These types of event are important but often not integral to the social lives of the students. For better or worse, drinking is often a big part of socialising at UK universities and pretty much encouraged by the faculty, meaning formality often goes out of the window at one stage or another. May be slightly off topic, but there are many excellent universities just in England besides and often on par with LSE/Oxbridge/Imperial - Durham, Warwick, Bristol, UCL etc.</p>
<p>Its true, the UK has many excellent universities, as does the US. I doubt, however, that Durham, Warwick, Bristol, UCL - while being without doubt great universities - are on par with LSE/Oxford/Cambridge. Yet these differences may be slight.
I like you mention the drinking part. I think though that while drinking in the US is often seen as a purpose in itself, drinking in the UK (or in Europe altogether) is more seen contributing to a nice conversation. This is why faculty usually doesnt mind having a beer or two with students</p>
<p>You’d be surprised - in the UK the above universities are definitely considered on par. Perhaps like US universities, it really depends on the subject. Durham is very highly rated for history and english, whereas you are simply unable to take these at Imperial. Admissions to UK universities really come down to A Levels, and the standard for all these places is AAB at the lowest. In this regard, A Levels are very specific, meaning a student will go to the best place for their chosen subject.
In the UK we’re still getting to the stage where alcohol is a social lubricant! I cannot overstate how much drinking is part of your life as a student here. I drank with my teachers during the last few years of school.</p>
<p>[University</a> Rankings League Table 2009 | Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php?subject=ENGLISH)</p>
<p>Times university subject ratings, UK.</p>
<p>[University</a> Rankings League Table 2009 | Good University Guide - Times Online](<a href=“The Times & The Sunday Times: breaking news & today's latest headlines”>http://extras.timesonline.co.uk/tol_gug/gooduniversityguide.php)</p>
<p>I never doubted that Durham is a top place. In the overall list, you will always find LSE/Oxbridge/(Imperial) in the top 4 places, almost regardless of subject. The other schools fluctuate more in the individual rankings. That is what I meant when I said that these four universities are a bit better.
But I am looking forward to you disproving me :)</p>
<p>I’d say UCL is way above the LSE but I have a bias for universities that do lots of important work in science. The UK is decent overall in every program but engineering.</p>
<p>Why do people on this board base everything on rankings? At least go to the ISI or whatever the equivalent is for the humanities and SS and don’t rely so much on other people’s BS methodologies.</p>