<p>^ you act as if they’re getting paid in the summer …haha!</p>
<p>Someone wish they’d gone into teaching so they too could earn a salary only 9 months of the year?</p>
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<p>I do not ACT as if they’re getting paid in the summer. </p>
<p>Now, do I think that they are paid in the summer? The answer is absolutely … yes. They simply do not have to work. It just appears to be different because of the extortionary practices buried in the collective bargaining agreements. </p>
<p>Teachers want to be considered professionals. And they should.
Teachers want to be paid like professionals. And they should. </p>
<p>Teachers should have performance expectations that mimic the rest of the workers. We no longer live in an agrarian society that needs time off during the summer to tend the farms. </p>
<p>While there is no evidence that supports a schooling system that goes all year long, there are NO reasons why the teachers should work only when the schools are open.</p>
<p>If they did they’d get paid more since the only way they get paid in summer is to choose to take smaller paychecks throughout the 9 months working.</p>
<p>I’ve been thinking I resent crab fisherman in Alaska. They don’t need any post secondary education at all and they get a 50 week vacation every year. They can make a lot more than most teachers in the 2 week season too.</p>
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<p>Teachers are paid for their annually contracted workdays. And that is where the problem starts and ends. Those contracts should be replaced with annual ones. </p>
<p>As far as how a transition would work, it probably will be along the lines of the existing system that protects the tenured and the older teachers and screws the more recent hires. When discussing the salaries of teachers, many like to quote the starting salaries to show how low the wages are. Rarely do the discussions involve teachers with double digits careers. </p>
<p>In the meantime, it does not taka a Rhodes scholar to find out the information of the salaries paid to teachers in various districts. That, or waiting for news such as what made the headlines in the Wisconsin debacle. In the middle of the siege of the capitol building, the Milwaukee schools district admitted that the average salary and benefits had surpassed 100,000 a year. And that included janitors and painters! No big deal, one would say, until one compares that to the average income of the citizens of Milwaukee who also happen to work more than 180 days per annum.</p>
<p>I agree that poor administration and poor management of payroll including overtime is a scandal.
It seems to be “cheaper” to pay overtime, than hire more workers.
In my husbands occupation for example, his income looks generous.
However that includes mandatory extra two weekends every month year round, in a physical job in a stressful environment.
Sure the money is useful, but he is needed at home more.
Working that many days straight is exhausting, he doesn’t have down time and the extra income is in a higher tax bracket.</p>
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<p>This isn’t solely a public school problem. Many private school graduates…especially those attending crappy ones like the ones my Mississippi cousins were unfortunate to find themselves in for a short period or similar ones classmates/friends told me about in other southern states have graduates with the same problems. </p>
<p>To make matters worse, most of the top 20%ers from my cousins’ former crappy private school are lucky to make it to their third semester at their local directional public university…even with remedial classes. Wouldn’t surprise me if there are similar crappy charter schools. </p>
<p>Conversely, there are many superb public school districts/public schools…especially magnets like TJSST, Stuyvesant, Hunter High, etc which graduate classes where even those who are in the bottom half of their graduating class end up excelling at some of the most respectable/elite colleges…whether as incoming freshmen or as transfer students. Many HS classmates who were C/D average students in HS excelled at the local/state public colleges, found experiences to be underwhelming academically, transferred up to respectable/elite schools(i.e. Reed, CMU, Columbia, etc), and graduated with 3.5+ level GPAs…and as mostly STEM majors. </p>
<p>I also speak from some firsthand experience…though my own experiences don’t compare in terms of polar contrasts…or impressiveness to those classmates. </p>
<p>In short, the problem’s much deeper than poorly run public schools.</p>
<p>With respect to sew happy’s observations…there’s a 272 page study that attempts to identify the vast performance gap between Canadian and American students that’s part of the Pisa research. I didn’t read it all, but it left me with a few interesting ideas. One was that teaching was respected as a profession in Canada, whereby top scholars at university would actually be encouraged to pursue their vocation. Comparatively, the study noted that teaching was often vilified in the US, and as a result, strong, gifted university students were not as frequently attracted to the profession, and students also adopted their parents disrespect for teachers and the classroom, which negated the potential to learn from this. This rung true to me.
Another finding was that economically, Canada didn’t de facto actually
spend much more money on education than the US overall, but the
existence of universal healthcare meant more of the Canadian
expenditures were in the classroom, while a huge percentage of
American funding is spent providing healthcare benefits. A third factor
was Canada’s social safety net, which was more apt to identify and
support at risk students, and which made it more likely that educational
resources were applied equally among citizens irrespective of their urban
or suburban locations (eg more funding available in urban areas with
high proportion of at risk students, more integration of social services.)</p>
<p>I used to lobby a lot in our state for better and more equitable
educational funding, but it became clear to me that it’s really not a
money problem, at least indirectly. It’s an attitude/systemic/values
problem. Many just aren’t willing or interested it educating all flavors of
children, or for that matter, any children other than their own. Kind of
“not in my back yard.” I don’t think people mean to be this way, but I
think somehow we become like hungry, feral children fighting over a
pizza. When you work your fingers to the bone to have what you have,
you tend to resent those that ( in our perceptions) don’t.</p>
<p>Given that both counties are western with similar western ethos and
media influence, it is nonetheless surprising that there’d be a 29-country gap in terms of global performance in math, etc. This gap cannot be
explained by culture alone. Your average Canadian kid is not a math
grind 
Mine’s an artsy type, learning disabled, and not particulary
studious. Yet he had straight As in calculus in a GT magnet school here
that’s considered rigorous and is known for grade deflation. That can
only be explained by having had a stronger foundation somewhere along
the line – that extra year in funded jk, those early years in
the Canadian system, or something. Not sure what.</p>
<p>Can someone explain what is proof positive of the “failure” of American public primary and secondary education? I ask this in all seriousness.</p>
<p>Is it inadequate average scores on tests administered to such public graduates world wide? Is it the raw numbers of graduates who go into a particular filed? What establishes the “failures?”</p>
<p>Here in NYC, the preponderance of high school graduates who must take remedial math and English classes before beginning their CUNY education is very concerning and doesn’t speak of success. But the question is where to place the blame and how to fix it.</p>
<p>Values-based education … how can ANYONE be against values-based education?</p>
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<p>The beauty of statistics is that one can twist what it measured and controlled to arrive at any conclusions. However, it is a generally accept concept that the expenditures per capita for education in the United States are among the highest in the industrialized world. Except for countries such as Switzerland and Luxemburg, the United States spends more than anyone else on education per capita. </p>
<p>Here’s an easy to interpret graph:</p>
<p>[K-12</a> Spending Per Student in the OECD | Mercatus](<a href=“http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd]K-12”>http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd)</p>
<p>and one from the US ED:</p>
<p><a href=“http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_ifn.pdf[/url]”>http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/pdf/coe_ifn.pdf</a></p>
<p>PS Expressing the expenditures as a percentage of GDP is a fool’s errand.</p>
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<p>Close to thirty years ago, we got a warning in the form of a report named A Nation at Risk. It said we were at the edge of a deep precipice. A cynic (or astute observer) could say, quoting African dictators, that we proudly made a big step forward! We did fall further behind. </p>
<p>[Education</a> Week: A Nation at Risk: 25 Years Later](<a href=“http://www.edweek.org/ew/collections/nation-at-risk-25-years/index.html]Education”>A Nation at Risk 2008)</p>
<p>And then take a look at the little graphic on this page:</p>
<p>[Home</a> Page - The Broad Foundation - Education](<a href=“http://www.broadeducation.org/]Home”>http://www.broadeducation.org/)</p>
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I am all for values-based eduction. Any values a parent wants to reinforce in their child through their choice of education is absolutely their right. I am not on board with tax dollars supporting values-based education at the expense of a solid, standard, core curriculum. Once you have those benchmarks met, add any additional teachings you want, be they religious, alternative, what-have-you. I guess a classic example would be teaching creation to the exclusion of evolution. You want tax dollars, teach both. You want to exclude evolution, absolutely your choice as a parent and as a school, but you’re not receiving tax dollars to do that. Obviously, that’s not the current standard in some places. It’s simply my opinion.</p>
<p>Zoosermom,we have the same problem here.</p>
<p>I used to be a college transfer advisor at the community college,and I was disturbed by students who had gotten good grades in high school, but did not place into college level math and English. Now, I hadn’t looked at their work, just their test scores, and I do think there should be some sort of an appeal process, but one of the first things I would look at would be to require teachers of middle & high school students to have a degree in their discipline before they recieved their teaching certificate. But am I right in remembering that NYC already requires that?</p>
<p>Another thing- which in my experience has a huge effect.
Substitutes and other teachers who have had waivers or other ways to get into the classroom without being prepared to teach. Some schools and areas may need few substitutes or teachers who haven’t had proper professional background. My daughters third grade teacher for example didn’t miss a single day all year. But her fourth grade teacher took a long break the first month of the school year to go back east for her grandmothers birthday. Threw off the whole year.</p>
<p>In high school, she wanted to continue to AP Spanish. However, her third year Spanish teacher was on maternity leave, and the sub wasn’t really qualified, leaving the class ill prepared to go on. It’s easy to see that just a few similar instances,especially in crowded classrooms, can really derail an education. ( in case you think I am using hyperbole,I am really speaking about the combination of circumstances that left D less than prepared to get the most out of her K-12 education, despite her being a really “good” kid and me being über involved.)</p>
<p>I am also Not A Fan of umpteen tests to evaluate students and teachers. Obviously they aren’t giving us the data that’s needed to evaluate what is being transmitted. Top private schools in our area undergo regular peer led self evaluation. The goal is to to improve education for the kids,not to get a promotion or save money.
[PNAIS:</a> Overview of PNAIS Accreditation](<a href=“PNAIS: Page Not Found”>PNAIS: Overview of PNAIS Accreditation)</p>
<p>Continuity is so important. Teachers and principals are routinely kicked upstairs to administration.We have a revolving door of superintendents who zip in, close schools and programs, implement new programs by which they financially benefit and zip out again.
[next big scandal](<a href=“Michigancitizen.com”>Michigancitizen.com)</p>
<p>My oldest who attended private school on the other hand had teachers who had been there for years, ( which is different than tenure- we don’t really have tenure in public school, you should be able to fire incompetent teachers, but principals are not in buildings long enough to care), the founding director of her 6-12 school only recently retired. </p>
<p>Public schools used to be the same way, set a high bar for teachers upon hiring, support them in the classroom and let them teach!</p>
<p>I’d also like to see all principals be required to teach in district before given a school. Set a high bar for principals,and expect them to stayin their school for five years.</p>
<p>Principals who are moved to administration,should stay a maximum five years. Then they need to go back to the building,but with incentives to stayin district.</p>
<p>We have little institutional memory in the district and keep wasting time and money discovering problems that could have been easily solved if we simply knew the history (and knew that we would be held accountable)</p>
<p>blue - You’ve put your finger on the key issue … WHOSE values? The whole thread got started because someone, not you obviously, was working under the assumption that the values of the Superintendent of Education should have ‘education’ predominant. Kicking kids out of school for legal behavior (lamentable for sure, but legal) doesn’t seem to advance ‘education’.</p>
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Actually, it advances ‘education’ for all those who would no longer have to suffer through disruptions, violence, disrespect - all of which are accepted, tolerated and even encouraged in many schools.</p>
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<p>Increasing numbers of high school graduates having to take remedial math and English classes is not solely a NYC problem, but a nationwide one. </p>
<p>It is also not limited to public colleges as my private top-25 LAC and several elite universities…including some of the Ivies offered remedial Math/English courses from glancing at their course guides and meeting students who were taking such courses. International student friends who were TAing intro writing courses at an Ivy all expressed astonishment at the horrid levels of writing skills of many native-born American students. </p>
<p>All of them said if those students exhibited such poor writing skills in their home countries, they wouldn’t even be allowed to take their nation’s college entrance exams/graduate high school…much less go off to attend college. They’d either be forced to repeat the year in high school to remedy that deficiency or told to consider alternative plans. Likewise for math or any other academic deficiency. </p>
<p>As for blame…I’ll chip in my 2 cents. It is a mixture of a culture which doesn’t place as much emphasis on academic/intellectual achievement, widespread disdain for the teaching profession and teachers so many of the academically top college graduates tend to avoid the profession like the plague<em>, a critical mass of parents who feel entitled to offload parenting tasks, many parents having the “not my angel” issue regarding disciplinary issues with their kids, extreme variability in the quality of public education depending on state/school district, the prevalence in most public and some private schools where teachers are forced to cater to the LCD students at the expense of everyone else, teachers/admin students hands are tied regarding student discipline…especially in separating out extremely disruptive/violent students from the rest of the class so there’s a safe learning environment</em>*, social promotion of students whose academic deficiencies would have forced them to repeat a grade or two 20+ years ago, etc. </p>
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<li>Could be considered a chicken or egg issue. In contrast, teachers are as highly respected professionals in countries like Finland and Singapore and aspiring teachers have to meet high academic standards and graduate near the top of their graduating classes to even have a chance to teach.<br></li>
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<p>** Had firsthand experience with this with bullies who were kept in schools despite violent/felonious behaviors because teachers/admins were fearful of lawsuits from their loudmouth parents with the “not my angel” syndrome. Ironically, most ended up/are still serving time in Rikers when the cops caught up to them. </p>
<p>More recently, had a computer client whose granddaughter was a victim of stalking/bullying by someone with a criminal record…and the school district is actually fighting his family’s efforts to get him removed from the school as a menace to student safety. Idiotic school district continued to appeal even after the court ruled that the found guilty stalker was too much of a safety risk and should be separated from the general school population.</p>
<p>“Actually, it advances ‘education’ for all those who would no longer have to suffer through disruptions, violence, disrespect - all of which are accepted, tolerated and even encouraged in many schools.”</p>
<p>Which would be defensible for a PUBLIC Charter School if the CHARTER included language something along the lines of “The Charter for this school is to provide education devoid of disruptions, violence and disrespect. A list of proscribed behaviors is provided on Addendum 3, which shall be part of the Student Contract distributed to and signed by incoming students.” </p>
<p>Unfortunately it appears that instead the Superintendent is making up new rules as he goes, and applying them retroactively. Did I miss something?</p>
<p>[Full Disclosure: My D attends a private school where students can be dismissed from school for essentially any reason at all. Students know this, and the school is devoid of behavior problems. It’s wonderful.]</p>
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<p>Variability between districts indeed. Our public school district has, in my experience, promptly and efficiently handled everything thrown at it. Discipline is not an issue. This probably has a lot to do with the socioeconomic status of the kids here, the vast majority of whom go on to college (and without remedial classes).</p>
<p>In 4th grade a kid (with some issues) knocked S’ head into the school bus window. I called principal, principal called kid’s family. Family came in and were told that one more incident would mean kid couldn’t take the bus anymore. That was that.</p>