Making college ‘free’ will only make it worse

Parents Forum
61

@NeoDymium Post #49 - I had never considered the issue you raise about federally controlled fin aid causing incentives for state universities to increase tuition, and that resulting conflict of interest. I guess I really didn’t understand where the fin aid was going to come from when we submitted those FAFSA and CSS Profile forms. (And I haven’t thought about it since then, because we were not awarded any fin aid.)

Do the public universities and the states fund any fin aid at all, or is it all federal? I know that some private colleges chip in aid for kids. Fin Aid is an apparently another area of spiraling federal spending that I did not know about.

I think I should stop reading this for now. Too many questions and concerns keep arising in my old brain.

62

I love the people who say “where there’s a will, there’s a way” when when they were in their college years, there actually was. The fact that tuition has increased massively beyond any kind of wage increases is irrelevant to them.

A full Pell grant covers about 1/5 of the cost at my public, in-state options. I won massive scholarships because I was fortunate- outside scholarships which are extremely, extremely rare. I also worked full time in undergrad. I still ended up with a large amount of direct loans. Without those outside scholarships, it would not have been possible for me to go to my in-state options. I’d probably still be finishing up at a commuter school instead of at my PhD program like I currently am.

Not every poor kid is in my situation and our public universities shouldn’t be a 4 year option only for those who are well-off enough to afford them or who are at the tippity top of their classes.

No one who is realistically discussing free-to-students college tuition is advocating making private schools tuition free. Just public ones.

63

In countries where college tuition is “free”, the colleges reign in the operating costs.

64

The biggest financial aid that states give is in-state tuition. That discount is basically the state government subsidizing education for residents of the state who will contribute to the tax base in the future. They also set the tuition rate in some but not all states (leaving it up to the states is a mess). They also offer some scholarships and aid at the state and university level, which I suppose is also a financial aid contribution. Pell grants and federal loans are federal sources of money, regulated by the federal budget. Private loans are privately issued by creditors by their own rules. There are a lot of conflicts of interest at every level.

It’s not a simple system and it’s mostly convoluted because a large scale solution would be a political firestorm. It would be like the reaction to the Affordable Care Act, which very few politicians would be willing to take upon themselves.

65

US universities have a lot of vanity luxuries the other countries don’t have in theirs. But I’d prefer an affordable education to an expensive 4-year spa that will cost me a decade or more of money issues.

66

@GoNoles85

Your statement that “monetary policy is been at or near zero for a long time” is patently false.

Although the Fed did not make interest rates changes for the last four meetings, that does not mean a lack of monetary policy. They made a conscious decision not to change the interest rates. Also, you seem to forget that the Fed also handles setting the required reserve ratios. They had updated reserve ratios in January if I am not mistaken.

67

@yikesyikesyikes K - Post #59 -

I hope there were sympathetic administrators at the LGBT kid’s college who helped him work through all of that. I know that I would certainly have tried to find fin aid $$ to keep the kid in the existing college - or try to waive the past fees and find him a college that where he could get his full need met - or seek scholarship $$ from outside community sources - or whatever. I wonder which colleges were involved in this scenario. I am guessing that this kid got all the fin aid he needed in the end, if he had the will to keep seeking help until he got it. Do you know what happened?

I despise his parents even though I don’t even know them. The story makes me very sad.

But…Does this story about a truly destitute kid mean that we should have to pay for college for ALL kids - even the middle class ones like mine who can find a way to pay by themselves, or the wealthy kids who want to go to UCLA or UVA or Michigan but can afford it without assistance? Can’t we just continue to find ways to pay for the truly needy ones, like this kid?

68

Even for middle and upper middle class parents, the cost of college is a significant dent in the finances. One child is painful, two or more starts to be a brutal drain on the finances, akin to a second mortgage. Those are less likely to get any significant financial aid, and not all of them will have scholarships.

College costs are much higher than they need to be. The current system is a series of shaky patches, not a solution.

69

Compared to other developed countries, the US is dysfunctional in the financial feasibility of bright young adults to attain public higher education being dependent on the willingness of parents to pay or to fill out financial forms.

70

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

It is a developing case. Also, cases like this are a lot more common than you think among students struggling to afford college.

71

@romanigypsyeyes Post #61 Which state do you live in? Sounds expensive. Did you read my story about my sister’s kids? It seemed pretty easy for them to get the aid they needed at UCONN. And they have very low student loan debt. Your state college must be very different.

You actually made my point. You found the will to find a way by applying for fin aid, outside scholarships, working, and taking out loans. You went through undergrad with more challenges than some, but you did it! More fin aid would have been appropriate, but I still think working PT (not FT), applying for outside scholarships, and taking out a few loans is not an unreasonable expectation of a college kid, including my own.

By the way, Congrats on your PhD! You can’t be that bad off if you are in a PhD program instead of working in a career outside to pay off student loans? Does a grant cover the full costs of your PhD and your living expenses?

Yes, college tuition was less in the old days, But, salaries were also lower. My brothers and I went to college on ROTC scholarships and other outside scholarships that we applied for - even back in those dinosaur days. Then we had to serve in the military after college to pay back our scholarships. My parents had four kids and not that much money, so ROTC seemed the right thing to do.

And I am very current on the high costs of colleges today, having visited about 40 public and private colleges in the past five years with my two boys. Like you, we looked at a lot of options to pay for college. One son took a full-tuition ROTC scholarship and is now serving on a ship in the Navy. We are nicely paying for the other son with savings, and it is a large amount for us relative to our military income. Second son did win a few outside scholarships and he will work PT in college. He seemed to have much cheaper (full-tuition) options in our state than you did.

Lastly, you are correct. No one here is suggesting that private colleges should be free, although some privates are actually already very generous to poor students.

I don’t know you, but I am proud of your work ethic and accomplishments. Congrats again!

72

@NeoDymium Post #67 - I agree with you that colleges are getting a little ridiculous in their spending and annual tuition increases. On the other hand, it seems like the fancy, expensive colleges are some of the most popular in our country. It seems like the more expensive something is, the more coveted and popular it is. Like with clothing, cars, homes in certain zip codes, etc. US News rankings perpetuate the frenzy for spending on college campuses, because colleges are trying to compete with the top publics and privates that tend to be on the expensive, sometimes more luxurious ends of the spectrum. How do we reign in that behavior?

@NeoDymium Post #63 - By the way, despite what people are saying here, I do think that in-state tuition is a really good deal at a lot of places. I was seriously thinking about moving back to VA just so my son #2 could go to UVA in-state. And I can’t believe how many states give free tuition to kids just for having a certain SAT. How do they afford that??

@PrimeMeridian Post #62 - I don’t know why state colleges would have any incentive to reign in costs if the federal government and taxpayers were footing the bill for everyone? Would the feds limit how much they would pay for each kid? Right now, the Feds don’t seem to be reigning in spending on anything very well. Why would it be different with a free tuition program? Or would the colleges become like VA hospitals, providing mediocre service to students because of overwhelmed, unmotivated employees and reliance on federal funding?

@yikesyikesyikes Post #69 - I don’t doubt that those kinds of sad cases are common, just based on what I have seen in my volunteer work in poor schools and communities in DC, CA and SC. I like that society and colleges are trying to help these kids rise above their poverty. I personally have enjoyed helping to organize fundraisers for college scholarships. Yet, I still don’t feel an obligation to pay for college the rest of the USA families that can find a way to afford it on their own, with some effort.

73

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

Even if parents were “irresponsible” and did not save for their children’s college, should we doom their children to a lower quality of life by not supporting their education? Once again, children do not choose their parents.

74

What it boils down to is how much are US kids entitled to? This, that, that squared, or e^that?

75

Giving a full ride to a certain percentage of top students really isn’t a big deal. From a budget perspective, it pays off pretty easily if they remain in the state and work there. It’s the students of moderate means that are really in trouble.

It’s a bit of an irrational spending frenzy. When the mantra is “the top class education at ANY cost” the top universities will oblige by charging a lot of money. For a lot of people it’s become irrational to go to those top schools.

At this point, it would require a pretty significant top-down overhaul of the entire college education system. The scope and size of universities would probably have to be reduced, especially with regards to dorms and other expensive real estate belonging to the schools. A lot of the perks of the schools (such as fitness centers and sports groups) would remain, but would have to be decoupled from the university, and be funded with private profits rather than with tuition money. Dorms would be converted into just plain old apartment complexes for anyone to use, including students (who might have their living subsidized based on need). Future construction projects would be less ambitious and more bare-bones functional to save money.

The bare-bones cost for most learning environments involves little more than a classroom, a lecturer’s salary, and basic infrastructure like computers and libraries. The other big costs would be research equipment (paid for by grants rather than tuition) and more expensive equipment for more applied coursework. Universities have much more than that, and while it is a good thing that they do, all of that costs money that the students shouldn’t have to pay when all most of them want is just the education. Community colleges are actually pretty efficient when it comes to providing a good education at a reasonable cost to the school itself - that’s a model that should be followed.

All that sounds like a really, really difficult and unpleasant thing to do, massive downsizing on that scale is scary in principle, and there are a lot of politically simpler temporary fixes that will push the problem another few years down the road until student loan crises come up again. So basically, deadlock.

76

MONABOYSTWO,

Maybe the tuition for public colleges could be linked with the amount of federal spending. And maybe student eligibility for free or subsidized tuition to public colleges should be conditional upon the student demonstrating college readiness, so not “everyone” gets it.

I read news accounts about students who need to take remedial courses for basic subjects, receiving federal student aid. What is the sense of that?

77

@yikesyikesyikes Maybe I am just not being clear. Poor kids need fin aid. I advocate being generous to them with fin aid. But every middle class & upper class kid does not need free college. For anyone, a few loans and PT work are mot a lot to ask of a lid to invest in his own college career. If midfle class family has saved nothing, then maybe the kid can file for fin aid as an independeny? If kid had decent test scores, several state universities offer sutomatic full tiition. Or kid can go in the military & get a GI or ROTC Scholarship like I did. Or start out at community college & live at home for a while like my nephew. I am rrpeating myself but you are ignoring that there multple avenues to pay for college.

I am not sure how I am dooming kids to a lower class life with these thoughts? Have you read anything I’ve eritten about my own family? I am convonced that kids who wamt college can get it. I seemed to run into kids at rvery campus who were getting a ton of fin aid. My sister’s kids are prime examples. UCONN did not doom them to a low quality of life. They got the fin aid they needed. Sister makes about $75K per year. Saved nothing for college.

78

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

Let me address each of your avenues one by one:

-loans and work: Student cannot take out more than something like $5,500 in loans without a cosigner (you need a cooperative parent for that). Good luck paying for college with less than $6,000 in loans.

-filing for financial aid as an independent - this is very difficult to do, especially if the student is not married

-“decent test scores” for automatic full tuition - this does not address living costs, and we should not only make college accessible to just top test scorers - also, test scores correlate heavily with socioeconomic status, so this option will not do much to help disadvantaged students

-start at community college and live at home - this assumes that the parents will cooperate and allow the student to live at home

-ROTC does not necessarily pay for full tuition, and even more unlikely to pay for full costs. ROTC candidates who receive such scholarships are the most competitive

I have had the opportunity to meet students for which none of these options are feasible. They come from a rough neighborhoods, oftentimes with parents who are too busy making ends meet to be engaged or with “deadbeat” parents.

As for the “GI” military option. I am of the camp that believes that it is preposterous that one needs to risk their life and wellbeing for a chance to get ahead in life.

79

It appears that for the average student, apart from the military path, the only way for the student to afford college is with the cooperation of the parents.

80

Which really sucks for parents with more than one college-age child at a time. Along with everything else, of course.