Making college ‘free’ will only make it worse

Parents Forum
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I’m always amazed at how quickly CC posters shut down the idea of using the military to pay for college.
My dad did it, as did a lot of people in his generation. Me too. My neighbor and my neighbor’s kid too.

It is a valid option. Yes there’s risk, yes go in with your eyes open, but … the benefit exists, and it exists as a recruitment tool.

I actually kind of like the idea of a compulsory national service tied in with post secondary education benefits. The draft was awful, but it did have the effect of stirring up the social classes and that’s no bad thing, IMO.

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The military does not admit everyone. The list of medically disqualifying conditions is long (includes eczema & severe acne). Casual drug use is also disqualifying.

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That is true. But even for physically qualified and interested students, there is typically a fair amount of discouragement.

… but that also is why I like the idea of a national service. Having to make CCC cabins or serve soup for a certain time takes a lot of starch out of the stiffest, whitest collar. Again IMO, that’s no bad thing.

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One could just take this lady’s direct approach and ask for other people’s money to solve her debt problem as well, no need for the feds. https://www.yahoo.com/news/aspiring-nun-pays-off-student-debt-using-gofundme-page-192128914.html

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@albert69 Post #60 I would not have minded donating to that girl so she could become a nun. She has “high” aspirations!

@PrimeMeridian Post #119 - Since most kids are still in high school when they are applying to college, I think that the fin aid rules were probably set up for the most common scenarios: 1) parents are paying for at least some of a child’s education, or 2) parents are at least involved in the decisionmaking about where the kid is going to college and how it will be financed. The other factor is that the FAFSA and CSS Profile forms are quite complex. Tax and investment information is requested. A young, inexperienced person would have a very difficult time understanding the forms. (They were daunting to me.)

People are considered legal adults at 18, but when it comes to financial issues (or the ability to legally drink a beer), there seem to be different ages for complete independence. My son could not rent a car under age 25, even when I said I would pay the bill and any damages. He could not get a credit card for more than $300 credit on his own at age 21, because he had no history of paying his own bills and no credit record. Even landlords of rental apartments verify credit these days, and he had none fresh out of college. He was fortunate because the landlords where he lived were willing to take his military pay statement in place of a credit check. Otherwise I would probably have had to co-sign the lease with him.

With the student loan debacle and kids not understanding interest and the long-term burden of taking on too much debt, I think that the fin aid program is probably set up to try to protect young people from making unwise decisions. Also, if a student is getting only partial fin aid, the college probably wants the parent involved so it knows the parent or guardian will be obligated to pay the balance of the school bill.

In cases where kids do not have involved parents, I don’t know how it all works. I am guessing that there are documents that can be completed to declare the child completely independent from his parents or a guardian, if he is 18. I am guessing that fin aid offices work with these types of kids. It would be hard for these kids to get outside private student loans without a credit record, but they could probably get the $5500 federal loan, and hopefully colleges would assign them work study and significant fin aid, since the kids would likely have no significant income or savings.

Since this topic has obviously struck a chord with me, I am creating a volunteer position for myself as I write - which would be to go to the poor public high schools around me (there are several) and see if any kids want help getting themselves into college and getting fin aid. Hopefully some kids (and their parents) would be interested. Hopefully some guidance counselors are already doing this…

The thought there are such selfish, lazy, uninvolved parents in the world is distressing. Other parents can just be clueless, maybe because no one in their social circles goes to college or cares about it.

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@TooOld4School Post #117 - Thanks for pointing out how young voters (and most citizens) don’t usually understand the ins and outs of how entitlements like “free” college are actually paid for. But, since only 46% or so of people actually pay taxes anymore, the future burden will really be on only half of the population. Some who get free college (even now with the existing fin aid programs) will never have to pay for their educations, even in taxes. And many will probably not feel guilty or grateful to the millions of strangers who supported them. They just expect it because the government offers it. Hopefully, after college, some of that 46% would have higher incomes in the future and be forced to pay back a small portion of their educations. But, with all of the other existing government programs, I don’t see how taxes from even 100% of the people will ever pay enough into the system to cover the actual total costs of these programs - at least the way they are managed how, and the way costs and the size of populations using them are escalating now.

Your quote <<<<sadly, young="" voters="" who="" support="" this="" are="" being="" duped="" -="" they="" the="" ones="" will="" pay="" for="" free="" college="" through="" increased="" taxes="" their="" entire="" lives="" no="" matter="" how="" productive="" are.="" parents="" may="" only="" have="" a="" decade="" or="" two="" of="" working="" ahead="" them.="" at="" least="" under="" current="" system="" graduates="" can="" get="" 2nd="" job="" and="" loans="" off="" in="" few="" years="">>>></sadly,>

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@PrimeMeridian Post #121 - I thought that casual drug use was illegal most places, not just in the military? I have a friend whose kid has been drug tested before being able to start a number of minimum wage jobs, and he has sometimes failed the tests - and he has been fired from others for showing up to work high. His mom, my friend, sure wishes he had finished college and stayed straight.

For my son six years ago, the ROTC Scholarship asked if he had used any illegal substances AFTER the age of 16. So, it you had tried drugs in middle school or early HS, but were not a current user, I don’t think they cared. If you had used drugs after age 16, there was an explanation box on the application, I think. Maybe to beg for a second chance? College apps have that same explanation box for kids who have been arrested in high school. I don’t know how scholarship and college admissions decisions for these kids are handled. I do believe that ROTC kids are drug tested a few random times during college.

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Maybe we can just acknowledge that there are voters that don’t think it through from both sides. For every “omg free college” teenage voter there is another “omg no socialism” voter from the other side of the issue.

It’s the ideas that matter, not the least informed people you can find who vote for them.

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The far left wants free college handouts, but why hand free college to the rich, or or to students who have made little effort to invest in their own education? What are we expecting students to offer in return for this opportunity? In contrast, the far right cost us a two trillion dollars in mistaken foreign wars, and schlepped the cost onto everyone, but has no interest in spending money domestically, no matter what the benefit that could be achieved.

This country needs to improve the results that are achieved by its education system. Spending on public education has doubled in real terms over a few decades, but the scores of average students have not budged. This spending has resulted in more well-paid administrators, better buildings, a maze of bureaucratic and costly union rules, and endless testing, but none of it trickled down to actual improved student results. Both parties have been complicit in this, and the rules are so byzantine that it is virtually impossible for anyone to really make substantial change. As soon as someone tries to make real improvement the constituents of multiple interest groups rush to quash it.

Sadly, much of what is needed to achieve better student outcomes is known, but many Americans just don’t value education, and those who do have no ability to implement what really needs to be done to get results. If nothing else, history has shown us that spending money without thoughtful, results-focused implementation just results in more spending. If we are going to get results we need commitments to achieve measurable benefits that are based on research and evidence. The argument should focus on real benefits to the country in total, not just to individuals. Then, if implemented, those benefits need to be tracked, and the implementing administrators need the authority to achieve to make active active decisions to achieve those metrics, and their compensation needs to be tied to the achievement of those metrics.

I have no doubt that it is possible to structure a program like this to achieve real benefits to both lower income people and also to the country, but I am skeptical that it will actually be structured that way.

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Kids aren’t rich - their parents are. The difference matters.

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@NeoDymium Post #127

Ideas = Good.

Unbalanced federal budgets, government inability to accurately predict future costs of new ideas/programs, and inefficient management/spending on those programs = Bad.

Find ways to fix the existing “Bad” then people might be more inclined to try the new “Good,” asssuming the “Good” can be accomplished without requiring even more taxes from those who actually pay taxes.

@Muchtolearn Post #128

I have always volunteered in the public schools where we have lived. In many cases, I blame parents for the problems in the public schools, not the schools or teachers. In schools where the parents read to the kids, teach their children manners and respect for teachers, help them with HW when they struggle, get to know the teachers, etc, the test scores seem to be higher. Parents can do these things regardless of income level.

Good behavior and an interest in learning needs to be fostered at home. Schools can’t do it all, even though I think most do try.

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@Muchtolearn And test scores aren’t everything. An overall passion to learn and a desire to work hard are probably more important. Tests should just make sure that kids can read, write and do math at grade level. Kids who can’t do these basics do need extra help. Sadly, some kids just have innate IQs lower than others, no matter how good a teacher is. But with the right mix of motivated parents and caring teachers, those kids can still be successful n school and jobs.

Example: My niece, now 28, has Down Syndrome Her IQ is low, but she is incredible. She works in a local government job as a low level secretary and is involved in tons of outside activities. She has a great personality. She went through public schools through HS graduation, and her parents made sure she was held to the same standards as her sister for doing HW, outside reading, etc, even though her assignments were below grade level. What a success story, attributed all to her parents and caring teachers. Despite her handicap, she is a contributing member of society and has a real job!

133

I am part of the crowd who believes that public college should be free. Should we charge for police, fireman and highways? Income inequality in this country is worse now that it has been in a long time. It is awful. There is a great societal benefit to having a free public education at all levels. Greed has been allowed to run rampant for too too long. Free public higher education would cost about 60 billion per year. GE , Boeing , and Verizon despite making billions and billions in profits paid no taxes. If federal income taxes and payroll taxes were increased by about 2 per cent public higher education could be free.

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@collegedad13 Post #132 How did you come up with the $60 billion cost and 2% tax numbers. How many people would be paying taxes in your estimates, how many students would be attending “free” college, what would that cost per student be, and how are you factoring in future population increases and future cost increases due to maintenance, new buildings and equipment, raises for professors and staff, etc?

Will you later want grad school to be free? What about houses for everyone? What about cars? Cell phones? Where do the freebies end? Should we all just live in a commune and share everything?

We (at least some of the population) already pay for police, fire departments and highways in our taxes, so why would we charge for them? (Although we do charge for some highways - in tolls - and I donate extra sometimes to the firemen.) Safe highways, police and firemen are “public goods” that can save lives, not individual entitlements like “free” college, which not a life or death issue. And, right now our poor police officers who are being abused and shot daily deserve a raise. I would rather donate to that cause than to kids whining for free college right now.

The poor kids are being already being helped with fin aid. The rest of us middle and upper income earners just need to suck it up, work hard, and save. Stop trying to get everyone else to pay for things for you.

Food for a family is expensive, Houses are expensive. Cars are expensive. Utilities and cell phones are expensive. College is expensive. I think that’s just life.

Other option: Don’t have kids. Kids are a luxury, not a necessity.

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An education is “teaching a man to fish”.
Houses, cars, cellphones are just fish.

Grad school is already tuition free for many disciplines.

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This is directly based on merit. Now merit-based free college is an interesting proposal.

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Selection for Grad school is intrinsically academic merit based.

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Isn’t that kind of the point? Sure, some people are probably suggesting open enrollment free college, but not most.

Part of the big difficulty seems to be in finding a good balance. If only the flagship or a few other campuses are free, does r+b have to be included along with tuition? That will make spots very competitive and limited. What if community colleges are free? Then there’s the issue of most people trying out the free CC, but not completing it because of lack of admissions standards.

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So what if we could make it so everyone could afford college and everyone graduated with a degree or trade school education? (I know, never going to happen, I’m just hypothesizing). Wouldn’t that only equalize everything so that you would need more than a bachelor’s to get a decent job in the field? From what I can find, less than half the US population has a degree. Say in 10 or 20 years time, that went up to 90%. Would the job market expand so immensely that people would be able to find jobs more easily than they can today, and at the same (adjusted for inflation) wages that educated people make today? Or would people still struggle to find jobs because there would be too many qualified people?

Also, with this “free college” - would it apply to older adults who return to school? Would they get free college also? Say someone wants to change their career midlife - would that work, or would they have to stay in the profession that they were channeled into based on their performance in grade school?

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If theoretically everyone could get a degree, I think it would be great because even if employment prospects would stay the same and the degree would lose value, we’d have a better educated society. That’s a great thing to have.

But it’s not really possible on that scale.