Making college ‘free’ will only make it worse

@yikesyikesyikes Post #96 @NeoDymium I am banging my head against the wall. WHY are you pushing a FREE FOR ALL new entitlement, instead of just focusing on those poor or middle class kids you are concerned about who don’t have parental help or have multiple kids in college and really need aid? I know sooo many middle and lower income kids who have happily gone to community college in the past few years without a government entitlement, some with fin aid and some without. So, WHY do we need a whole new, additional government entitlement for everyone, when our government is already deficit spending and debt is escalating beyond control? Let’s just focus on making college affordable for those who actually need the help, and not worry about making it free for everyone in the USA who might otherwise be able to afford it, even if they have to working a little or take out a few loans or find other scholarships.

As an aside, with the escalating costs of homes, food, health care, college, etc, people need to think ahead about how many kids they realistically can afford to raise. But, if those same people get most of that stuff for free from the government, I guess they don’t need to think ahead like I did…Two kids was the limit for us financially. I don’t want to penalize kids for having irresponsible parents, but we do need to figure out why more adults don’t think of the future before they have sex and produce children. I am all for free birth control for those who need it. I am for scholarships and fin aid for unfortunate kids so that they may get educated and may better decisions and better incomes in the future than their parents did. I am all for free birth control for those who need it. I wish that it would be used more to reduce the numbers of children born to drug addicts, criminals, deadbeat parents, or others who are just too young or immature to be able to provide for their children.

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

There are a few things wrong with your statement:

It suggests that kids getting kicked out of the house is just a problem that the very poorest face. Also, you fail to realize that when students graduate with massive debt, they are less likely to spend money or take risks. This limits entrepreneurship and home ownership amongst many other things. This is not smart economic policy.

We need a skilled population. If you are not college-educated or do not have a valuable skill learned from trade/vocational school, you will most likely work a minimum wage job and contribute little to the economy. We all benefit when our population is educated - we see less crime, more innovation, and a higher standard of living.

@yikesyikesyikes Post #101 Kids with no parental support and/or means to pay for college can and should be helped. If their middle class parents have kicked them out of the house, then they need help. But there is no need to have a broad entitlement for all, even those who have no need. It would be nice if everyone in the USA made a decent salary and paid their fair share of taxes to support our special country. Thus, I completely agree with your goal of helping kids to get educations that will help them develop marketable skill. I still don’t want to pay extra taxes so that your children or mine can get something for free that they can actually pay for themselves. Are you missing something that I am saying?

@PrimeMeridian Post #90 - You are correct. National parks, libraries, medicare, medicaid, social security and food stamps are not universal rights. They are all “nice to haves.” But, med, food, and money for the poor and elderly who can no longer work can lead to saving lives. Somehow those entitlements seem a little more valid than free college for all, which is not a life or death issue. We already have TANF and all of these other entitlements to help kids physically survive if they don’t go to college. With the skyrocketing costs of existing entitlements (like the meds, TANF, & soc sec) we just can’t afford to add a whole new “nice to have” entitlement for EVERYONE regardless of income level…

Let’s just make sure there is adequate fin aid help for those who really need, like Medicaid tries to do for poor people. Are you willing to replace medicare, medicaid or soc sec so that we can afford to provide free tuition to everyone, including children like mine who have loving parents and ability to pay? There is a separate tax for med & soc sec, just as some states have separate gas taxes for roads Are you proposing another separate tax for college? We already have fin aid for the poor and overburdened middle class, so why tax us more? Let’s just tweak the existing system to serve destitute kids who have uninvolved parents or overburdened middle class families better, if needed.

National parks and libraries were established a while ago, but I don’t believe that their total portion of the fed budget has escalated like the other entitlements have. We could cut them out, and no one would likely die as a result. Park rangers just might need to get new jobs. But, the parks are for everyone to enjoy, not just those who want to go to college. And since they are less expensive to maintain than the other entitlements, I vote to keep them in for now - at least until legislators decide we can no longer afford them. I think that maybe community center and local libraries could be combined in towns, to create some cost efficiencies But those are mostly local government issues, not fed entitlements.

I do think there is bureaucratic waste that can be cut in every government agency, so some of that savings could be diverted to more fin aid. But, that waste and the spiraling costs of entitlements really need to be managed just to try to reduce our deficit spending and debt. I think that there is fat in the Dept of Defense which also needs to be cut, but security by police, the FBI and the military can also be necessary to save lives, so I am not willing to completely eliminate or dramatically downsize any of those to pay for college.

Do we owe fin aid or free college to illegal immigrants? I guess we should help those kids who are here now, because, if we don’t send them home, they need to become educated, self-sufficient, contributing citizens who can pay for the schools, food, low-income housing, and free medical clinics that they have used here. But, I don’t think we can afford for more and more poor illegals to keep coming here for our free stuff.

I have lived in cities in CA and DC/VA and worked in those public schools. So I saw the vast resources that were spent on those poor illegal kids and families. CA is caving under the financial burden. I do have a heart, but I just don’t see how America can pay for everyone poor person in the world who wants to live here.

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

How do you propose we do that we help the people I mentioned? Obviously, the current financial aid system is not working.

and @GoNoles85 Firstly, I am not advocating “big ticket” schools to be free . Secondly, the entire 50% that pays taxes is not all overburdened. The majority of the top 1% pay LOWER tax rates since their income largely comes from capital gains rather than labor, and capital gains is taxed at a lower rate for some reason. I am not saying tax the wealthy disproportionately, but just tax them the same way you tax everyone else. This can be worked towards by stopping preferential treatment of income by capital gains.

@yikesyikesyikes Post #103 - I actually think the fin aid system IS working for the majority.

But, I also wish I knew a lot more of the exact details of the fin aid process at all kinds of public colleges around the USA, especially the details of what benefits can be provided for the kids in bad situations, which are the ones you and I are mostly focused on.

I think maybe tweaks to the rules about parents having to be involved in the fin aid process are necessary. If a kid is kicked out of his poor or middle class family’s home and is not getting any financial support from the family and he is a legal 18-year-old adult, why can’t the fin aid offices just work directly with the kid for the $5500 loans, work study, fin aid, etc - and completely ignore the parents and their income? If a kid has no income, he would likely qualify for free tuition, and maybe more for room & board, if the system allows that? If the system does not allow for coverage of room & board for destitute kids, then that would be another thing to change. The loan and work study could pay for uncovered expenses. All 18-year-old boys can be legally drafted for war, so why can’t they treated as independent adults in the fin aid process? I would look at that tweak — Although, all parents might start kicking their kids out to get more college money for the kids — For non-poor students, there would likely need to be legal documentation that the families had actually disowned their kids permanently. If the kid could’t get them to sign that, then he would sign vouching that it is true and swearing that he will not get outside support from family members in the future.

I wish I had a good answer about to fix all the woes of the current fin aid system and the disadvantaged. But, I feel like a lot of kids are being well-served already, and free for ALL is not the fix, when full assistance is only truly needed by a portion of the college population. Others may whine that they NEED it, but they really just WANT it, because most of those parents and kids can usually find ways to pay for college with fin aid as it is, plus jobs, scholarships, ROTC, if necessary, as we have discussed already.

Maybe knowledgeable college fin aid officers would be better able to make suggestions on how the system could be improved without just creating a whole new entitlement for everyone, even those who don’t need it.

It’s just too expensive to say blanket free for all is the answer.

Alright, we’re kind of going in circles. Instead of addressing each point separately, I’m just going to give a more general response. I could write a more thorough case for why socialized education is a good idea, but frankly I’d have to write an article longer than the article in the OP to properly make the case, and I’m not really inclined to do that right now; maybe some other time. So I’ll try to keep this short, relatively speaking.

Bottom line is, education costs are well above what is necessary to actually instruct students. Part of the problem is the fact that aid money is spent so recklessly because the federal government does not control the schools that get them. States care a little bit, and private institutions care not a whole lot about keeping prices down. Universities themselves have little incentive to keep prices down because they get the money. Private schools (of both the for-profit and nonprofit variety), which don’t have to get permission from the government to change tuition rates, are the worst for this. Most of that money goes into projects that have little to do with education - executive salaries, sports, fitness centers, fancy dorms, cosmetic improvements, etc. Under strict controls and a significantly downsized university system, high-quality education could be provided on the cheap.

Alright, so college can be cheaper. Now why does that mean that the government has to pay for it?

That’s because the only real way to ensure that prices stay low is that the cost of the education is set by the government. And while yes, it would probably be possible to just have the financial aid system in place as-is while mandating that colleges charge no more than a certain price. But really, that just adds another layer of bureaucracy to the whole process because it already requires that the government do a whole lot more work, the entire system is subsidized by the government already, and then the financial aid system would just add more costs on the students who are less capable of footing the bill than the working population. This is one of those cases where taxing everyone to build something that benefits everyone is better than charging everyone who uses it separately. Education contributes a lot more to productivity than what it costs.

Why not just help the poor?

Because the system doesn’t work as well as you think it does for that. 40% of college students are over 25, and a lot of them don’t qualify for need-based financial aid, or scholarships, at all. The caps for financial aid don’t really help the students who live in expensive states. There are a lot of failures even for the specific demographic of 18-year-old college bound poor students, most of them having to do with not having supportive parents. And other demographics, such as students going back for a Masters or a second degree, because their career didn’t work out as well as they would like, are stuck. A lot of people choose not to go back to school, even in state universities, because the money just isn’t there, and they don’t make enough money to pay for it themselves. Student loans pile up quickly and they lead to debt for many years to come, and a lot of people can’t afford to take those, even if offered. Financial constrains are a very common reason for people choosing not to go to school, or back to school.

Furthermore, the costs can start to be too much even for parents of decent means. Middle class and upper-middle class parents also struggle to pay the bills for university attendance, because they get less aid money. Especially if they have more than one child. It’s not a good idea to just tell people to have only one child just so they could afford to send them to college. Too many children is not the problem in this situation.

What about private vs. public schools?

State schools are cheaper and more efficient overall, even though they do still waste a lot of money. For-profit schools are the worst offenders and despite being a small fraction of the overall school enrollment, they are responsible for about half of all student loan defaults. Private nonprofits are by far the most expensive, being a mix of high-ranking schools (e.g. Harvard, Stanford, MIT) and other schools such as liberal arts colleges. If nothing else, it would be important to bring the for-profit schools under control because they are by far the least effective in the entire system.

Private nonprofits are expensive, but they aren’t run by the government. They can do what they want, but perhaps they shouldn’t do so with government money. A lot of those schools aren’t really worth having, and a lot of the most reputable ones could fill up their class year after year even if they charged $50,000 per student per year, paid in advance.

Why should I pay for rich people to go to school?

Everyone pays for everyone else. They would probably end up paying more for you to go to school (or send your kids to school) than you would for them to do the same. But it would be cheaper for both you and for them overall because that system would lower prices across the board.

@yikesyikesyikes Post #103 - I agree. The whole tax system needs an overhaul. Too complex. We could get rid of most IRS employees, Turbotax, and tax accountants if we made it simpler for citizens to understand and file their taxes.

I honestly would not be able to guess how much any of my friends pay in taxes - at least the wealthy and the middle class ones - even if I knew their exact salaries. There are so many other factors. But, I do know that almost half of the population pays no taxes at all, so I can guess what most of my poorer friends pay.

I am pretty sure that most of my wealthy friends do pay much more overall in taxes than I do, even with any tax shelters, etc.

If we overtax the wealthy too disproportionately, they will just move their companies and money out of our country completely. We need their money.

Neo, how can the government fix the “cost” of education? Are you suggesting that the Feds take it over in a delivery mode?

Or, did you mean lower the price, as in the Feds will set a tuition ‘price’ for which they will pay/reimburse and no more? (adjusted regionally for cost of living, I assume.) Sort of like how Medicare reimbursements are set and then if doctors accept Medicare, they have to accept the Medicare rate and not balance bill?

@MOMANDBOYSTWO

People tend to hear and believe what they want. So, good luck trying to be get some folks to see the light because even if you make it clear they will fall back onto their unalterable beliefs because “they know someone” or their own personal situation rather than seeing the big picture.

Lots of public policy has good intentions.

I would add, I appreciated your comments on this thread and I’ll be specific. I believe you mentioned that you and your brothers funded your education with ROTC and I believe you stated you felt better of because you did that instead of taking a handout either from your parents or the government. Good for you. That is personal responsibility. You did it yourself and you earned it and I am sure it was much more valuable to you because of it.

I know exactly how you feel too.

I didn’t want to burden my parents. I was more than happy to roll up my sleeves and get the job done myself and I am quite certain that sense of personal responsibility not only helped me get through school but, even more importantly, become successful afterwards. It wouldn’t hurt our country to have some sort of required national service for young folks. I also think anyone who gets government welfare or assistance of almost any type after a certain amount of time, let’s say two years, should have to pay it back at some point. That is arch-conservatism. But that kind of thinking would get our country back is fiscal shape and prevent a whole lot of people standing in line for this and that handout without a shred of remorse for taking it as if it is an entitlement.

I don’t have a full cabinet of advisors to give you the best answer to that, but I’ll do my best.

Most likely, it would involve the federal government taking an increased role in controlling how education is delivered and how the university business is operated. They would do a lot to standardize the degree requirements for various professions, to ensure that companies know exactly what they are getting when they hire graduates with any given degree. The state would probably remain in charge of the infrastructure of the university, but the actual job of educating students would become a national issue. That would, incidentally, solve the issue of in-state vs out-of-state tuition, which exists primarily because the state wants only to pay for its own residents and wouldn’t be an issue if education is paid for on a national level.

The reimbursement structure is something that would be quite difficult. The goal would be a structure that pays universities for their operating costs in educating students, while providing incentives for reducing costs, having high-achieving students, and providing education in critical professions the country needs. It wouldn’t be a strict “government tuition rate” because Medicare has shown that that doesn’t really work very well, but it would be controlled in such a way that the education of the students would be the primary expenditure, while the university would be forced to cut back on other secondary projects like real estate.

@NeoDymium Other than the spiraling costs of provided Medicare to our increasingly large aging population, why has the “strict government tuition rate” concept not worked fo Medicare? Is it because not enough doctors want to accept that rate so are not offering services to Medicare patients - or another reason?

My parents did have a bad “Medicate” experience at a hospital recently when the ER doctor didn’t want to keep my father overnight, because she didn’t want to commit “Medicare fraud.” It took three people to get him back into the house at 1:30am that night (He has Alzheimers and hip problems, so can’t walk on his own) That was a fiasco, and he fell again the next day morning and now is in FT care. Why the doc didn’t just keep him that night I don’t understand She said he was not an emergency case, but he was in great pain. The nursing home later confirmed that he had a fracture in his spine. I guess fears of being caught for Medicare fraud are causing doctors to make some decisions that are not always in the best interests of the patients.

So having the feds in charge of the finances at our public colleges is a good idea?

The VA Hospitals are doing such a great job too…

@GoNoles85 Thanks very much for the nice comments.

This has been an interesting discussion, but I think I am wiped out and really have no more to add. I care about disadvantaged kids very much, but I am not a financial aid expert, so I don’t know all about the potential flaws in the system. I would surmise, however, that those flaws could be fixed more easily than instituting a whole federal takeover of public higher education and a whole new expensive and unmanageable entitlement program for the millions of college students in our country.

The word reimbursement in post 109 above gave me an idea. I don’t like the government taking a greater role in controlling colleges and universities, seems government has plenty on their plate as it is. But, what if the reimbursements went directly to the students? In this scenario, students have to come up with money for their first term. Immediately weeds out the unmotivated. A couple of summer work earnings might do it. Maybe a loan could be available. Upon successful completion of the quarter/semester, the fees are reimbursed and with that the student can enroll in the next term. Timing would be tricky I admit as registration for the next semester is always before grades are posted from the current one. Kids who don’t take school seriously don’t get reimbursed. If they are smart they will drop out to regroup before taking on another semester and re enroll when and where they are more likely to be successful. But, at this point they may only have a small loan to contend with. Reimbursement should be limited to a total number of credit hours and over a limited number of years. It could even be on a sliding scale-100% for an A, 80% for a B, 60% for a C, or 100% for A,B or C. Ds, Ws and Incompletes are the burden of the student who failed to work hard, seek help and or follow the institution’s policy for timely dropping a class. Life lesson. Upon graduation, that final reimbursement check would pay off the loan, or a big chunk of it.

Reimbursement would be for not-for-profit, accredited, public trade schools, community colleges and universities and cover tuition and fees BUT NOT room and board. Exemptions could be provided for students who live outside of a reasonable commuting distance. Should parents want to provide the room and board or the private school experience it is on them, or the generosity of those private or out of state schools to make it happen.

I have no idea if this is feasible, but it could eliminate the sense of entitlement that develops when someone is given something for free and becomes accustomed to it. It could also eliminate the frustration and anger hardworking tax payers feel when they can’t send their own kid away to college, but their tax dollars go to helping another student, one who may be partying away in the dorms. At the same time, every student who needs or wants reimbursement is held accountable for choosing a major wisely and doing well in their classes. And no one is buried under a mountain of debt.

In my utopia, I would up the income limit of $125,000 that Hillary proposes. Or, I would consider cost of living and the number of children in the family when determining if a family qualifies for reimbursement.

Sorry to all for the many typos in my previous posts. Trying to type fast. Old eyes. Some were done on my cell phone. Hope you could infer what the intended words were!

A lot of reasons that basically boil down to that it doesn’t reduce costs, doesn’t provide efficient medical care, and basically encourages doctors to allow problems to develop to the point that they become expensive (and profitable) to treat. Too many parties are allowed to turn a profit off of government money instead of providing the low cost, high-quality care that patients actually need. In short, the incentives are all wrong.

Who exactly do you think is in charge of finances at public colleges right now? It’s the government, for the most part.

To be perfectly honest I think the better choice would be just to choose not to admit those students who aren’t going to be trying hard, until they can prove that they have the mettle to make it in college. I don’t think it would be too expensive to have “questionable” prospects have to spend one year in a community college to show that they have the dedication that it takes to attend a university. Your reimbursement plan does penalize people for not having as much money as their peers’ parents.

@Nestalmostempty Post #112 - Your CC code name could be mine. Very sad for me that husband and I are will be empty nesters in a month…What will we talk about?

Your ideas surrounding accountability, reimbursement, and commitment seem on the right track. Some kids would have an impossible time saving ahead for room & board and that full first semester, while working at McDonald’s and concurrently having to pay for their own living expenses. That is why many are on TANF and Medicaid today. Those would need fin aid assistance to get started, I think. But, you are thinking outside of the box. Thank you for that. The general concept sounds good to me. Details could be tweaked. Just creating another freebie entitlement program no strings attached is unaffordable for our country at this time.

<<<<<in my="" utopia,="" i="" would="" up="" the="" income="" limit="" of="" $125,000="" that="" hillary="" proposes.="" or,="" consider="" cost="" living="" and="" number="" children="" in="" family="" when="" determining="" if="" a="" qualifies="" for="" reimbursement.="">>>>>

The following is meant to be funny, so take it with a grain of salt: In my Utopia, Hillary won’t be the one deciding.

I think the purpose of ‘free’ college beyond the obvious pandering to young voters is more nefarious. It gives the federal government control of the entire public college system. What has the government ever done well once they have control of it? The deplorable VA system is what you get when a complex system is government run. What about the inevitable propaganda that will seep in once the federal government takes control (like common core)?

On a more practical side, how many of those students will chose unmarketable majors because the cost is zero? It is bad enough already when student loans are forgiven - meaning the current taxpayers pay for them - for students who choose a field and/or employer favored by the government. I would prefer to donate to a specific scholarship fund for things that I think are important, not those chosen by the government.

If a state wants to do that for their residents, that would be OK. There are already examples (e.g. Kalamazoo promise) where this happens but it is privately funded.

Sadly, young voters who support this are being duped - they are the ones who will pay for free college through increased taxes for their entire lives no matter how productive they are. Their parents may only have a decade or two of working ahead of them. At least under the current system graduates can get a 2nd job and pay the loans off in a few years.

So who exactly do you think runs the higher education system right now? Shrewd, smart, and philanthropic businessmen? State governments that are somehow better than the federal government? A supercomputer with the Three Laws ingrained into it?

The government is very good at doing a lot of things. But people don’t bring much attention to government programs that are actually well-run, because that’s the kind of thing you only notice when there is a failure in the system.

I certainly agree that a lot of the supporters of free college are just looking out for themselves, in that they just want their debt annulled, but nevertheless it’s something that would be beneficial overall.

Not many. A socialized (“free” doesn’t exist, it’s just government-funded) education system necessarily has to tighten admissions requirements to make sure that people who get government money will use it towards a degree that is useful. Otherwise the system will collapse under its cost.

The current system saves the government a lot of money because over a trillion dollars worth of the debt was passed directly to the students. Costs a lot more than taxes under a socialized education model.

It’s inherently wrong that a young person is obligated to have his/her parents’ cooperation to go to college-- not just for payment, but to simply fill out the financial aid forms.

I know of middle class parents who refuse to to pay and refuse to fill out the forms (for different reasons). Their children cannot even get a student loan.