Male or Female?

[ariesathena]

<p>What I said:

1. If I were to have sex the way men want me to - without love, without committment, without emotion - I would be a whore.</p>

<p>What Jym said:
2. Men are pigs.</p>

<p>That somehow translates into the fact that I have deep-rooted issues because I think that women who have sex in long-term, loving, committed relationships are whores and men are pigs.</p>

<p>Huh???</p>

<p>Which leads me to ask… what did you expect as a reaction? Yes, I should have been kinder about pointing this out initially, and I apologize for that - I am sorry. Berurah, you have been (usually) very rational and compassionate and caring, but you criticized me for something I didn’t even say. </p>

<p>

aries-
Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Thank you, Jim! I know CC speak for “You have a point; since I can’t attack that and don’t want to admit it, I’ll critique the fact that you bothered to make it.” </p>

<p>

If you come across to your boyfriends (the way you have come across here on this thread) when it comes to dealing with the next levels in relationships, why are you surprised when they quickly head for the hills?

I think YOU are blaming the wrong person - and I say this with A LOT of thought. I have tried, bending over backwards, to be nice about my feelings on the matter. I have said in so many different ways that it isn’t the right decision for me and has nothing to do with him, and (there usually is a pro-life/pro-choice split) that I would not have an abortion if pregnant and that it’s something for him to consider. </p>

<p>I don’t expect you to know this - or know my life - but the illustrative example was my junior year of college, when I was really sick. Chronic pain, haemorrhagic ovarian cyst, and they thought I had endometriosis. The cyst & endo would cause very painful sex. I was also on the edge because they were having trouble diagnosing me, although I had been under the care of a doc for about a year. He asked if I wanted to have sex. I said, very kindly, no, I’m worried about my health; all my docs keep telling me that sex would be really painful; that I was really worried about having a gynaecological issue anyway, and adding sex to that is a huge concern; pregnancy concerns - I had two years of college left, he was almost graduated, so yes, I really understand that we are at different points, but for me it would be education or abortion if I got pregnant; and I can’t take the Pill. He then proceeded to dump me, as I lay in his arms. </p>

<p>Jym, if there is a better way of explaining that message - a prettier bow to put on it - then PLEASE tell me. I do not know of any kinder way of explaining something than to say, “Here are my reasons, none of which have to do with you, it’s just that this isn’t the right choice for me.” The ONLY message I can take from things like that is that my physical and emotional well-being are secondary to getting laid. I don’t know how a man can look at a woman who has been disastrously, frighteningly sick and not accept as valid that she needs to get her body fixed first. </p>

<p>Is it really the lack of style in the message? Or is it the end result?</p>

<p>I would have a much easier time of accepting your advice as well-intentioned and kind if you bothered to take a HUGE step back and think about what I am saying. There is nothing psychologically wrong with someone who is unorthodox - difference is not a per se problem. Difference is only a problem when it intereferes with your life (but it is not the nature of the minority viewpoint that does that). Lack of romance doesn’t interfere with my life or make me less happy or make me feel like I’m incomplete. (There are people like that. There are people who want a better half and feel like Shel Silverstein’s “Missing Piece” without them. No criticism from me - and I really hope, more than anything, that those people find someone.) Consider that, when my life is remarkably full of love and caring and wonderful people, I no longer want to beat my head againt a wall.</p>

<p>LealDragon,
As for your friend and his son - that’s tough. My sympathies to him, his wife, and his son. I do think there has been some failure of parenting - my big issue with some of the Catholic teachings are that they never tell you WHY you should do certain things, they just tell you to do them. Which causes all sorts of very expectable problems but no one bothers to tell them to wait for marriage, too.</p>

<p>Here’sHoping: Very good post. It has been my experience that, if you want to get into a long term relationship and possibly make love then, you should expect to have fairly meaningless sex at the start of the relationship so it will even last that long. </p>

<p>

I know you’re an atheist, but you might be interested in reading Pope John Paul’s “Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality” to help put your mind at rest. I turned to this document to fortify me when I got sick to death of my kid’s health textbook, which among the hundreds of pages of graphic discussion of every aspect of life, failed to mention, even ONCE, the word love.

Two things, one serious, one not: 1) feel your pain re: health texts & the purging of love that puts dictatorships to shame; and 2) will do… but for heaven’s sake, can’t the Catholics find someone who isn’t celibate to talk about love and sex? </p>

<p>

It has taken tremendous effort on my part to raise my boys in a different way than the popular culture suggests. Many moms don’t bother for one reason or another.

Having four parents, I can tell you why. No one wants to say, “Do as I say and not as I did.” You remember being a kid well enough to know that your kids will run right out and do everything that you did but told them not to do. Parents aren’t willing to be completely honest and to bare their souls to their kids. I think I’m lucky in that one of my parents has been remarkably honest and has said things like, “Yeah, we all did drugs back then, but it was a different time. The drug culture didn’t stop us from doing our work and we still got good grades and went to college and played sports. It was still stupid of us, though. Nowadays, the drugs are harder and the kids aren’t bothering with their futures. Be careful.” Or, my eternal favourite (sincerely, not sarcastically) is some version of, “I did xxx and I really wish I had not because (blah blah blah). I really wish someone had told me that it was a bad idea because (blah blah blah). I want something better for you and really hope that you don’t end up feeling like (blah blah blah).” Wanting something better for your kids? That’s the American dream and we’re all on that bandwagon. Problem is, it involves parents opening up to their kids instead of either ignoring the situation or running the risk of being seen as a hypocrite. Also, fathers can have a huge influence but most of them leave that stuff to their wives.</p>

<p>Ah! A segue into normal conversation, back to gender. :)</p>

[d3f3nd3r]

<p>Way, way too much information here. You need help, sistah.</p>

[doubleplay]

<p>d3, that was uncalled for.</p>

[ariesathena]

<p>::Shrugs:: Well, no one forced him to read it. It’s kind of his own issue.</p>

[berurah]

<p>

@ariesathena

Berurah, you have been (usually) very rational and compassionate and caring, but you criticized me for something I didn’t even say.

aries~</p>

<p>You have said much in the past few days on this subject. One of the things was this:

There is no “waiting” for the right one - there is no “right one” that would do anything save make me wait to die - for those of us who do not believe in divorce, death is the only out.

If I understand this statement correctly, you are saying that there <em>IS</em> no man alive who, if you were involved in a romantic relationship with him, would make you not want to die. To me, this is akin to saying that there are no good men or, in other words, that all men are “pigs” of sorts. I was NOT attributing something jym said to you…I was basing my commentary on things YOU had said throughout this thread. </p>

<p>You also said this:

I wonder about the men who think that women can live their lives for others and be blissful. Happiness takes many forms. How long could you go, sexually, only focusing on the happiness of your wife, with none to you? How long could you go, in a marriage, without any sexual satisfaction - with you touching her, but her not responding? With everything you do bringing her joy, but has no physical effect on you? A week or two? Not a lifetime, and no rational person would suggest that the set-up should bring anything but misery and lonelilness to you. Yet, it is somehow not just acceptable but “noble” to tell women to conduct their emotional lives in that manner. Sick.

This insinuates that men, in general, do not care for the happiness of women, but rather solely for their own happiness. Again, a “piggish” trait.</p>

<p>

Even “nice guys” of the early 21st century have been brainwashed.

Again, reinforcing that even the “nice” ones are unfit for a relationship with you.</p>

<p>

It beats having sex with a man who is only dating me to get laid.

Has no man ever wanted to make love to you simply because he <em>loves</em> you, or do you always assume this motive? (Not that the prior reason is adequate for you either…just askin’)</p>

<p>

I am not going to compromise and put out like a whore because some guy wants me to and will treat me badly if I do not.

I do not think one should put up with someone who treats her (or him) badly, sex notwithstanding. The point I was <em>trying</em> to make in the post that made you angry is that not every woman who has sexual relations outside of the context of marriage is “selling herself short” or “putting out like a whore.” </p>

<p>In essence, what I have been trying to say above is simply that whether or not you have used the exact term “pig,” you have pretty much asserted that about the entire male half of the population, and as the mother of three boys, I felt that to be unfair.</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

[jym626]

<p>Aries-
Whew. I am not going to waste too much time trying to respond to the diatribe or trying to clarify, as I doubt I will be successful. Besides, I am still enjoying the UF won over UGA and the GA Tech win over Miami, and I dont want to wreck my mood (anyone confused by my mixed fla- ga affiliations, pm me if you want to understand).
A few feeble attempts:
(1) “men are pigs”. I was JOKING !!! (hence the emoticom next to it). Maybe I should be clearer next time. I will put (jk) next to it instead of a smileyface. Live and learn. Sheesh.</p>

<p>(2)“methinks thou doth protest too much”. YOU DO. Look at the lengths of your posts. I am not interested in “attacking your points”. I certainly could, if that was my interest or my style. Neither are. And I see no point in being as longwinded. </p>

<p>(3) Sorry to hear of your cyst and endometriosis. Though your story was a little hard to follow. You jumped to “he” (I assume talking about a bf) when you were talking about being under a drs care. It sounded like the dr dumped you as you lay in his arms. I had to read it a few times to figure it out :eek: . As I’ve said before, we don’t know you or your history, just what you chose to share here. But when someone perhaps steps on your toe and you react by going for their jugular, it seems pretty clear that there is an agenda behind it. And just for the record, I, too, was under the knife of an ob-gyn in grad school, having a large abdominal cyst surgically removed. And I also went through a possible cervical cancer scare, requiring cryosurgery. Fortunately for me, my then bf handled those events differently than yours. I am sorry yours wasn’t able to be supportive in the way that you would have preferred. But I unfortunately cant give you great suggestions of what else you could have said that would perhaps had a different outcome, as I imagine it was not just that one conversation that tipped the end of the relationship.</p>

<p>I am truly sorry that you think my suggestions and comments are not well intentioned. I cannot change that. So as I said before, I am done. </p>

<p>One last thought- and I really don’t mean this flippantly. If you struggle with relationships and don’t want to have a sexual relationship, why don’t you befriend gay guys? Gay guys are wonderful friends. Certainly heterosexual guys are good friends too (I have several that I’ve known since college who were and are truly “just friends”) but that is harder to navigate. It is less complicated with gay males. Just a thought…</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>"can’t the Catholics find someone who isn’t celibate to talk about love and sex? "</p>

<p>HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! OH that is priceless!</p>

[lealdragon]

<p>“…it involves parents opening up to their kids instead of either ignoring the situation or running the risk of being seen as a hypocrite…”</p>

<p>Too much info??? Well whoever criticized the above post by Aries must be one of those parents unable to open up.</p>

<p>Aries, I agree completely! In fact, that is exactly how my hubby and I decided to raise our son! We were completely honest about all the stupid stuff we did. I go into a lot of detail in some other thread about kids and alcohol. (don’t remember the exact title.) </p>

<p>He just left to take a girl to the movies. He was bummed because all his other friends are going to Halloween parties tonight with one objective: to get wasted. Are there ANY teens out there who can party without getting drunk/high? Any??? Any in San Antonio?? My son is having a hard time finding them.</p>

<p>The irony is that their parents are the people my hubby & I used to party with in the 70s. But they’re not admitting it and now their kids are doing the same things.</p>

<p>Aries: for not having any kids yet you sure have some great wisdom. If you ever change your mind about marriage & kids, you’ll make a great mom.</p>

[FountainSiren]

<p>I don’t know…</p>

<p>I think the gentle-poster doth ATTEST too much; in what sense is–of all things–the sex life of anyone posting on cc your “interest” or concern? Such that you need to educate/evangelize. How overly earnest of the social-scientists, free-love-pugilists and yentas amongst us (Berurah gets a pass because, in general, I find her homespun posts kickin’).</p>

<p>As I understand: Aries, a very well thought out lady, has views of dating and pre-commitment sex that are well within the range of good human emotions/morality and the nuts-n-bolts of hookin’-up, even when escaping the existential dread, common boredom and screaming children that accompany such chic-talk. That some are offended by the lady’s moral choice, view and lifestyle seems to be their–altogether swingin’ hep-cat–problem, not hers…daddy-O! Click-click…Mwah! Mwah…Mwah!</p>

<p>How about if we start debating the sexual robustness and frequency of the sex-lives of the fading married couples amongst us? …been getting’ enough, sweetie? …if not, maybe it’s time for a new mouthwash, chichi make-over or perhaps the physical miracle of botox: been puttin’ her/his feet to sleep, Romeo/Juliette? </p>

<p>Says me:
…need to involve your rockin’ self in someone else’s sex life, buy a porno and help kick start the SoCal economy: perhaps with your significant and sluggish other…if you dare, you high-steppin’ Lothario/Laylee, you . </p>

<p>Back-up-off-it.</p>

<p>Free-love to all [not intended to mean bumpin’ bodies–just good tidings…don’t be a perv]!</p>

[jym626]

<p>Ahhh-- and FS comes in swinging!

in what sense is–of all things–the sex life of anyone posting on cc your “interest” or concern

a quick catch up-- this began a few pages back as a discussion about marriage. Not even sure how the topic veered there. Aries is the one who brought up her views about marriage and relationships and celibacy and such- not anyone else. Our interest or concern? She could have politely said she didnt want to talk about it further (when someone responded to her initial comment about marriage) but that was not what she chose to do. Instead, out came the long epistles,which got increasingly harsh. very uncharacteristic of aries, which was of genuine (whether you choose to believe it or not) concern.</p>

<p>And fwiw-- if you read carefully, there <em>is no sex life</em> to be involved in here. The appropriate analogy would be to rent “Sister Act” or something (I am sure there is a more clever movie analogy-- someone help?)</p>

<p>So, why come in here and lecture about lecturing?</p>

[berurah]

<p><a href=“Berurah%20gets%20a%20pass%20because,%20in%20general,%20I%20find%20her%20homespun%20posts%20kickin’”>quote=FountainSiren</a>.

[/quote]

Appreciate the sentiment, sweetie, but I’m no sacred cow. Criticize if you wish, but do me a favor, will ya? Just don’t relegate me to one of the circles in Dante’s Inferno…it doesn’t sit too well with me. ;)</p>

<p>

How about if we start debating the sexual robustness and frequency of the sex-lives of the fading married couples amongst us? …been getting’ enough, sweetie? …if not, maybe it’s time for a new mouthwash, chichi make-over or perhaps the physical miracle of botox: been puttin’ her/his feet to sleep, Romeo/Juliette?

You <em>really</em> don’t want to go here, do you FS?? Suffice it to say that my hubster and I are polar opposites in every way…save for one. And we’ve been reasonably happy for nearly 23 years now! </p>

<p>I have been involved in this thread since its inception, and I’ve yet to see anyone advise aries on her sex life or advocate that she take part in any activity which violates her values. </p>

<p>~berurah</p>

[FountainSiren]

<p>

“I’m no sacred cow”

Having only recently learned of your athletic prowess–which I assume has survived your salad days–the thought of you being any kind of “cow” has never even entered my mind.</p>

<p>

“Suffice it to say that my hubster and I are polar opposites in every way…save for one.”

Note that, not every man is an athlete…nor must they be; it is certainly not a necessary condition of a happy marriage–though I can imagine an upside to physical prowess…yahoo–yeah, yeah, yeah!</p>

<p>

“Just don’t relegate me to one of the circles in Dante’s Inferno”

This counts as an indignity if, and only if, the accused actually believes the sulphurous place exists as an eternal fact; this would exclude, I believe, pretty much every therapist/evangelist/do-gooder in this thread–though, I have it on good authority that this circle is known to contain poets, so:
no fair acting hurt if you can’t do so in verse…it’s like threatening a dentist with the ‘tooth-fairy.’ </p>

<p>[Edit: I’m currently taking a course on Dante by the world’s greatest authority on the medieval world’s most renowned nether-world-tourist…a visiting professor at D, Robert Hollander]</p>

<p>As for me, I wouldn’t condemn even my greatest foes to the 2nd through 9th circles of Hell; I’d send them to a much more profound place of torture, like…say…the dentist’s chair…or the big comfy couch of the therapist/evangelist/do-gooder.</p>

<p>

“I’ve yet to see anyone advise […random poster…] on her sex life”

though I don’t take the necessary time to imagine the salacious words into naughty pictures, there was hardly a post in this thread that was able to go from top to bottom without a reference to [blanks] sexual activities and proclivities, complete with earnest suggestions and moral prescriptions. That, my dear, in the world of romance, is not true love.

@FS being quoted by Berurah and commented on by same

“(Berurah gets a pass because, in general, I find her homespun posts kickin’).” …[says Berurah] “Criticize if you wish

Last but not least, fwiw–much like Aries romantic life–no one gets to decide, for me, who I will give a pass to. Apropos this thread, I will make a pass at, or give a pass to those who move me to do so, not those who, in their age and wisdom, tell me to do so.</p>

[berurah]

<p>FS~</p>

<p>As always, a pleasure! :)</p>

<p>

@FS

Note that, not every man is an athlete…nor must they be; it is certainly not a necessary condition of a happy marriage–though I can imagine an upside to physical prowess…yahoo–yeah, yeah, yeah!

O.K., O.K., make that TWO exceptions to our polar opposite-ness…in fact, my hubster is, what we would have termed back when, a <em>hunk</em>. 53----but with the body of a well-toned 30-year-old (he runs and lifts regularly), and a full head of thick, fingers-run-through-able hair. Absolutely no complaints there! And yes, fitness has its advantages! ;)</p>

<p>

the thought of you being any kind of “cow” has never even entered my mind.

:)</p>

<p>

This counts as an indignity if, and only if, the accused actually believes the sulphurous place exists as an eternal fact; this would exclude, I believe, pretty much every therapist/evangelist/do-gooder in this thread–though, I have it on good authority that this circle is known to contain poets, so:
no fair acting hurt if you can’t do so in verse…it’s like threatening a dentist with the ‘tooth-fairy.’

No acting involved–the genuine hurt came from the <em>intention</em> to inflict hurt or insult, not the result. I am an examiner of intentions more than I am of results. I tend to give passes to those whose well-intended deeds go awry.</p>

<p>(Still workin’ on the verse, o.k.? )</p>

<p>

As for me, I wouldn’t condemn even my greatest foes to the 2nd through 9th circles of Hell; I’d send them to a much more profound place of torture, like…say…the dentist’s chair…or the big comfy couch of the therapist/evangelist/do-gooder.

ITA about the dentist’s chair. OMG. :eek: (As an aside, have you ever watched the movie “Marathon Man”? Now, THERE’S HELL!!) Let’s see, I’m not a therapist–or an evangelist…so, that leaves do-gooder…Does that mean that you would refuse to visit me? Or, maybe you’d just find it more comfortable on the floor. Either way, you have a standing invitation! :)</p>

<p>

there was hardly a post in this thread that was able to go from top to bottom without a reference to [blanks] sexual activities and proclivities, complete with earnest suggestions and moral prescriptions. That, my dear, in the world of romance, is not true love.

To this I would simply say, consider your audience. To post on a PARENTS forum, parents who but for the fact that they, at one point or other, have HAD (and presumably enjoyed ) sex, about being single and celibate by choice would likely give rise to some differing views. That said, though, I don’t think that the “do-gooder” nature of many of these posts, mine included, were intended to change [said poster’s] mind about being single or celibate, but rather to express concern for the feelings behind some of the more startling comments, such as this one:</p>

<p>

@ariesathena

There is no “waiting” for the right one - there is no “right one” that would do anything save make me wait to die - for those of us who do not believe in divorce, death is the only out.

</p>

<p>Simply put, if one of <em>my</em> daughters felt this way about men in general (and not ONE or TWO specific men), I’d have grave, grave concerns. NOT concerns about her choosing to remain single or celibate if that was her rational choice, but rather concerns about what may have happened in her past to contribute to such dire and far-reaching (and exceedingly angry) feelings. I would wish for her to live a more happy and contented life by getting to the root of these feelings and working them through.</p>

<p>

@FS

Last but not least, fwiw–much like Aries romantic life–no one gets to decide, for me, who I will give a pass

Well, then, sweetie, I shall accept this “pass” happily and with appropriate gratitude! :)</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

[audiophile]

<p>Now you’ve gone and done it, and I must speak out (even if it means taking this thread even more off course).</p>

<p>Enough anti-dentistism! Just like sex, if dentistry is painful, it’s not being done right. </p>

<p>Back to your regularly scheduled programming.</p>

[berurah]

<p>

@audiophile

Now you’ve gone and done it, and I must speak out (even if it means taking this thread even more off course).</p>

<p>Enough anti-dentistism! Just like sex, if dentistry is painful, it’s not being done right.

OMG!!! Pickin’ myself up off the floor… :D</p>

<p><strong><em>ROFLMAO</em></strong></p>

<p>Priceless, audio, simply priceless! <em>PLEASE</em> take this thread MORE OFF COURSE, SOMEONE!! :)</p>

<p>My sincere apologies to any and all resident dentists, though “Marathon Man” will <em>always</em> wig me out… Anesthetic is a <em>GOOD THING</em>!!!</p>

<p>~berurah</p>

[parent2noles]

<p>Hmmm, I was wondering if we needed to address how as one ages, they begin to discuss their illnesses and various surgeries. :)</p>

<p>Perhaps it’s time for one of my provocative threads…how about:</p>

<p>Politics, Sex and Surgery…A Democrat’s Dream?
:rolleyes:</p>

[jym626]

<p>p2n,
How about a thread on the effects of emotions (stress/sadness vs. joy/hapiness) on aging as a result of college football scores ? :D</p>

[parent2noles]

<p>Wow…timely. I’m feeling really old. Go 'Noles! (4-4…not since 1976 :eek:)</p>

<p>btw…one of my bros got a grad deg from gt.</p>

<p>I see that emoticon…you better hope the gatros win in TLH. If they lose to the 'Noles…when we’re this bad, we’ll never let you live it down. (lol)</p>

[jym626]

<p>You are feeling good after yesterday’s game??!!?? What are you smoking?
My nephew goes to MD. Sorry…</p>

<p>*** and if the gatros lose in TLH- I’ll lose some of that thanksgiving weight-- great diet plan :)</p>

[jym626]

<p>addendum-
Diidn’t you lose a bunch of your football players a yr or so ago due to either arrests, curfew violations, or some combination thereof? Maybe they’ll let the mascot play.</p>