Male or Female?

ariesathena · October 27, 2006, 6:25pm

See, you ask the wrong questions. One of my friends (quite kindly) pointed out that I should stop dating people simply because they seem nice and want to date me. It really is not me being attracted to them, at least not initially - I WISH I could say that I’m attracted to creeps, but that’s not the case. It’s the fact that I really should get out of law and into the FBI, tracking down serial rapists. It would be a job that does itself.

Demand sex? Yes, you read that right. It’s better in the South, but I simply cannot tolerate the attitudes of men in the northeast and west coast. No matter how many times they have heard that it isn’t going to happen, they ask, whine, b-tch, and then dump me over it. (That, by the way, is the kind of thing that makes me think therapy won’t work. It’s not like I’m not very upfront with the men that I date; it’s just that they choose to not believe me. Someone - probably correctly - pointed out that it feeds into a male macho thing, where they want to be the “one” who is first and be the one who gets me to cave. Eeewwww…) I will be totally honest in ways that will really upset most parents here - but I do NOT know a single girl who is waiting and has not been dumped for it. Every girl who hasn’t been dumped has either never dated or has put out - and please understand that I have a fairly wide circle of friends. Therapy won’t change that fact of life.

Therapy can have a lot of good uses - I have been before and apparently it helped. (Went in kindergarten when I was so antisocial that I wouldn’t talk to anyone except for my father.) Just don’t believe in therapy for this particular issue. Therapy is NOT a panacea for anything which ails one’s personal life in the same way that litigation is not a panacea for legal troubles. :p

Alumother · October 27, 2006, 6:57pm

Umm. Have to ask the obvious question - and will duck and cover afterwards. Why so committed to waiting if it causes such distress?

ariesathena · October 27, 2006, 8:35pm

No ducking and covering. Simple answer:

Because it beats the alternative, which is having sex (when I know that, the person I am, I get all romantic) with someone who doesn’t care about me.

It surely beats another alternative, which is to be jaded about sex.

It beats having sex with a man who is only dating me to get laid.

It is better than selling myself short. I am not going to compromise and put out like a whore because some guy wants me to and will treat me badly if I do not.

Allmusic · October 27, 2006, 8:46pm

Honestly, it sounds like you are just meeting some bad dudes. Not every man is looking for women to “put out”. If those are the only men you are meeting, you need to pick different places to meet them!

jym626 · October 27, 2006, 10:46pm

berurah-
Great post! can I cut it out and frame it for our waiting room? Love those “happy endings”.

Aries-
we all know women who have been dumped because they wouldn’t “put out”. We all know men are pigs :rolleyes: (jk) But let me see if I have this right: (1) you are saving yourself for marriage, (2) you never plan to marry.
Uh—

berurah · October 27, 2006, 11:43pm

Oh, you BET!! What is it they say about the newly converted–or, relatively newly??? lol

That’s what I was thinkin’…

aries, sweetie, you are so very jaded about men who desire sex. How can you separate this out and not be jaded about sex itself?

WARNING…JUST MY OPINION…but here goes: When sex is held as the highest prize within a loving relationship, it in many ways skews that aspect of the relationship and gives it more import than it need have in a normal relationship and particularly a marriage relationship. Don’t get me wrong…sex is an absolutely wondrous and intensely intimate PART of a relationship, but it is ONLY a part, a part that at times gets laid (no pun intended ) aside for other priorities.

As a mother, I have tried to help my older kids put sex into perspective by communicating to them that I do not wish for them to put SO much import on it that they marry someone simply because then it is “legal” to have sex with that person. We live in a different world now…young adults often marry later and place their educations (including grad/professional schools) as a priority. If my child doesn’t finish with school before s/he is 25 or 28 or 30-something, I would not wish for them to have denied themselves for all of those years the opportunities for true love and the natural passion that follows it IF THAT IS THEIR CHOICE.

I totally respect your views and have always been an advocate of “to each his own,” but I do think it’s important for you to at least consider the idea that not all physically passionate young men are pigs and not all women who choose to engage in a sexual relationship within the context of a loving partnership are whores.

~berurah

ariesathena · October 28, 2006, 3:28am

I have wonderful guy friends. OTOH, I can say for certain that every single woman I know who will not have sex either until marriage or outside of a committed relationship has been dumped for it, at some time. It happens to me more frequently than to others. Still, my heart breaks for many of my girl friends who have the same problem. I see how bad they feel afterwards and know that they wonder if they are really worthless. I’ve seen my bright, pretty, talented, and wonderful friends wonder why men don’t appreciate them except for as-.

I do think it is a generational thing. I have talked to MANY people of your generation, who almost never see this behaviour. My generation - everywhere. I’m talking friends from high school, college, law school - friends from all over the country, all different personality types.

It gets old. Fast.

Most of the men I’ve dated have never introduced me to their parents. Most do not want to be exclusive. Sometimes, I’ve known the parents, but the guy hadn’t told them that we were dating. Their committment to a relationship is nonexistent, yet they want the ultimate physical act. Am I really the only person who sees a problem with this??? These are not men who had dated me for a year and then got upset; these are men who start pressuring me after three weeks when they are still talking about other hot girls that they want to date.

There are two basic schools of thought on sex, and nary the twain shall meet: that it’s the ultimate manifestation of love, and that it’s fun and a good time. I cannot change who am I and pretend that I am not in the first group. Heck, I need romance before kissing in order for it to be good - why on earth would I want to have sex outside of marriage? If marriage never happens and sex never happens, I don’t care. (You can’t crave what you haven’t had, by the way.)

The best analogy in the food world is something like parsley. I don’t care how hungry I am - I’m never going to grab a spoon and head to my spice cabinet. On it’s own, it’s pretty useless. For other people, sex is a lot like bread. If I never ate parsley again, I don’t think I would care. If I don’t happen to eat the one dish in which I use it, fine. I’m not going to start mixing it in with my chocolate cake, though, because people would start saying that I was hating on parsley otherwise.

I also don’t approve of the idea of wedding bands outside of marriage. Does that mean I should run over to Tiffany’s to find myself a nice platinum band, because I don’t happen to want to marry and heaven forbid, I won’t have all the frills? Or am I somehow hating on wedding bands because the logical consequence is that I’ll never have one?

I’m not criticising anyone - but I really wish that the people who criticise me would try to understand that I didn’t ask for my psyche to work in a certain way – I can only work with it. Espeically those who work as psychiatrists. (Would you, Jym, suggest that an alcoholic drink, because it’s normal and the result of absistence from alcohol is that you would never have it?)

Berurah has six kids, has adopted half of CC, and I’m sure has also adopted all of her kids’ friends. A lot of people have one kid and think that it’s more than enough. Great. I fully expect that someone would b-tch slap me if I were to suggest that Berurah would have been happy with only one kid. Likewise, it isn’t right to tell me that the way that you live your life would make me happy, when we are talking about the most personal of choices. (Absolutely vicious, actually.)

The fact that we are not all made the same way should NOT be rocket science, especially to anyone who has clicked on a poltical thread. It upsets me when you people (yes, you people) nevertheless ask me why I’m not like you and pretend that I should be.

My (lone) consolation, often, is that I have not slept with the people I’ve dated. Why add to the heartache? There is some comfort in knowing that, no matter how bad my relationships have gotten, that they have not poisoned every element of my life. There is a lot of comfort in knowing that, no matter what the pressure, I’ve at least fought for something important to me. There is value in knowing that I’ve fought for the integrity of my psyche, to the best of my ability. Other problems don’t mean that I should just throw in the towel and start screwing around - it’s the more reason to fight for the small part of my romantic self that is not in shreds. (Best analogy I have is that, when people close to you start dying, you appreciate those around you more.)

Finally, I do not subscribe to the notion that the fact that people are pressuring you to have sex is a good reason to have it. Last time I checked, that’s the worst possible of reasons. Regardless of your stance on before marriage/not outside of it, you just shouldn’t have it because you are being pressured to! That argument of y’alls really blows my mind.

I really do not mind explaining my feelings… I do object to the snide comments. No matter how contrary you find my emotions, there is no need for the little comments. Clear?

ariesathena · October 28, 2006, 4:12am

Berurah, I read your post several times before responding. I’ll try to put this in your terms. The idea of having sex outside of marriage does not make me think, “Oh, bad, wrong, anti-Catholic.” The idea of it turns my guts into curdled milk. It is one of the few visceral reactions I have, and denying the strength of that personal reaction is beyond mindless. It isn’t a thought or a weird religious belief so much as a mandate.

While I completely agree that there are issues with holding out sex as a “prize,” I fail to see how that applies to me. Maybe your issue (snarky comment re: Jym’s quote, specifically) is that you just don’t understand that I don’t care if sex never happens but I do really care whether or not it happens in the right way. For me, that means marriage.

If the term “slut” is to have any meaning, it must relate to some activity. People (either gender) who have indiscriminate sex, IMO, fit the definition. A few weeks, casual relationship, not exclusive, no second thoughts - um, yeah, a little on the promiscuous side. I see something fundamentally diffferent between that and those who wait for long-term, stable, loving relationships. If you refuse to see that distinction, and, more importantly, don’t think that I see it, that is your problem.

See, I don’t. I refuse to be responsible for what Jym thinks I am saying. Really, can I tell you where to go for that snarkines? Sixth circle, witch.

Risk-averse, high strung people are not cut out for casual sex. I am phenomenally risk-averse; I’ll happily listen to gentle teasing, alcohol (cyber or not) induced laughs on my behalf… just please don’t tell me that I “should” act differently.

A final, mostly unrelated thought: I am the only woman in my family who has never had an abortion. I’m selfish enough to think that I deserve better than the same (mostly because I don’t think that any woman deserves to have an unwanted pregnancy). I don’t want to start a sex ed war - will just leave you with a classic college line from one of my friends: “God, Aries, with your luck, you could have a hysterectomy and still get pregnant.”

jym626 · October 28, 2006, 9:41am

aries-
Methinks thou doth protest too much. And your reaction to all this is way over the top. Geez, look at the lengths you go (literally and figurally) to vehemently defend your position. I don’t see people making snide remarks to you. I see people trying to be helpful. But you seem to be getting unnecessarily defensive. You seem to be reacting to us the way you probably react to men when you are feeling “pressured”. Lighten up. Really. And the drinking analogy makes no sense, but its not worth discussing. And what the heck was that thing you said to berurah , “sixth sense, witch”? Since when have you reverted to name-calling? What has come over you?? This is a totally different, and less than enjoyable side of you. Holy cow.

Aries, the way you talk about this sounds like the way my patients who have been vivtims of abuse (emotional and sexual) talk. I don’t know if this is part of your history, and it is none of my business. But if you don’t want support or help, no problem from this end. Finito. By the way, I do agree, there do seem to be sociocultural differences between what seems to be more frequent “hooking up” up north and somewhat more frequent “dating” in the south. But I’d like to close with one thought- and please, hear this with the encouragement with which it is intended. If you come across to your boyfriends (the way you have come across here on this thread) when it comes to dealing with the next levels in relationships, why are you surprised when they quickly head for the hills? I think you are blaming it on the wrong thing. I have read and enjoyed your posts for a long time, but this topic presents you in a totally different light. You are running off those who have been supportive of you. Don’t blame it all on the guys. Please,take a look at how you are coming across. And please, no need to respond, just think about it, will ya?

berurah · October 28, 2006, 10:42am

aries~

It is has become very obvious to me that this is one of those cases in which message sent did not equal message received. I am choosing not to defend my well-intended words, but rather simply offer the most sincere of apologies to you for having hurt so you deeply that it would cause you to lash out in this way after the respect and affection I have shown to you on this forum, always, (and will continue to). I am sorry, aries. Peace.

~berurah

hereshoping · October 28, 2006, 11:40am

Blame it on feminism.
In the late '60’s early '70’s we were told that we could/should have sex lives like the guys (and the pill made it possible). We all went out and bought The Joy of Sex. We were liberated! We instituted “sex ed” in schools so we could teach the children to have protected sex (the only thing that mattered - not getting pregnant-- no one gave a passing thought that std’s might proliferate in the future). Progressives do not consider the unintended consequences, you see.

At least we had the grace to call it “free love.” There was still the vague idea that love should be attached to sex, at least nominally. In the '60’s and '70’s most guys were still astonished and appreciative that the girls would “put out” like this. It was still not that common. But now we’ve had thirty or more years of females being trained to do so, for their own good, by the feminists. No matter the heartache for the young girls (which has been documented time and time again); you want a boyfriend, you put out.

As the mother of two sons, I know that there are still gentlemen out there (my own sons and many of their friends) who would never pressure a girl for sex if she didn’t want it (and so far the girls they’ve chosen have not–not a coincidence, I think). It has taken tremendous effort on my part to raise my boys in a different way than the popular culture suggests. Many moms don’t bother for one reason or another.

Some boomer parents may object to bowls of condoms being put in dorm bathrooms, for example, but we are vastly outnumbered among that generation and are called “prudes” for doing so.

aries, there is nothing wrong with you and don’t let anyone tell you differently: true love waits (corny but true); sex should be attached to love. I know you’re an atheist, but you might be interested in reading Pope John Paul’s “Truth and Meaning of Human Sexuality” to help put your mind at rest. I turned to this document to fortify me when I got sick to death of my kid’s health textbook, which among the hundreds of pages of graphic discussion of every aspect of life, failed to mention, even ONCE, the word love.

Allmusic · October 28, 2006, 12:36pm

And women used to be compelled to get married, just so they could finally have “legal” sex. They married too young, and often for all the wrong reasons. Getting married just to finally have sex is every bit as wrong as having sex with anyone and everyone.

Like it or lump it, HH, sex isn’t going away. Perhaps the pendulum had swung too far, and will now swing some of the way back. Personally, however, I don’t want my daughter’s world to be so constricted that her choices are limited by pre-feminist norms, even if the hooking up and so forth bothers me too.

I also agree that there are plenty of men not looking to get into a girl’s pants. I think those celibate societies are equally represented across gender lines. Maybe Aries should look there for a potential mate (though she doesn’t want one…)

Finally, as a relative newbie (and thus relegated to a position of lesser information and status than the oldtimers here), I too am shocked at how Aries spoke to Berurah, since I sincerely believe she was offering loving and helpful advice…not trying to be judgemental, controlling or a mind reader.

m_amp_sdad · October 28, 2006, 1:20pm

So to bring this thread BACK ON TOPIC, I am guessing that Ariesathena is female.

Any other guesses/confessed misses on frequent posters not already identified?

Could we start a seperate thread on the evils of men and their sexual demands, if so desired?

lealdragon · October 28, 2006, 1:30pm

“Getting married just to finally have sex is every bit as wrong as having sex with anyone and everyone.”

Well said! I have a friend who has 5 boys. They have strict religious views on sex. The oldest married his 2nd girlfriend after knowing her for only 2 months because he was feeling those hormonal urges and having a hard time resisting them. He was 18 and I think she was 17.

Now, 7 years later, they have a 6-yo child but a rotten marriage. They barely speak to each other.

I cannot help but question: Which is the worse ‘sin’ - trying out several sexual (but hopefully meaningful) relationships in an effort to be sure that you choose a partner that is a good match for you, or being stuck in a loveless (but sexaully ‘legal’) marriage?

I know women with strong religious views who readily have sex with their husbands even though they really don’t want it because there is no love in the marriage.

Which is worse: having loveless sex in a marriage, or having loving sex outside of marriage?

Of course I think loving sex within marriage is the ideal, but realistically people don’t always live up to that ideal. I am just presenting some ideas for thought. I don’t think it is such a black-and-white issue. I think more value should be put on love. There are some cases in which love has long since left the marriage. I contend that sex in those cases is worse than sex in an unmarried but loving relationship.

Re Aries: OK so maybe she did lash out a bit. But I think everyone should quit being so hard on her. It took great courage to post such personal stuff on a public forum. When discussing such a personal and delicate matter, feelings can rise up and sometimes people might get a bit defensive and say things less tactfully than they normally do. Aries has always posted very well-thought-out and articulate posts, so the fact that this time she didn’t sound quite her usual self is an indication that this is an emotionally charged subject. I’m sure she knows that everyne has good intentions, and she is smart enough to take whatever pieces of info might be useful to her (if any). Maybe we could all cut her a little slack here.

Re condoms in dorm rooms: I am continually amazed at people who are against abortion are also against easy access to birth control. Comdoms in dorm rooms do not make teens have more sex. Teens already have sex! Condoms in dorm rooms just helps remind them to have safe sex. That is a GOOD thing. It might help keep down the rates of STDs and abortions. That’s a GOOD thing. I’ve never heard of anyone who didn’t want to have sex for moral reasons decide to have sex because there was a condom available. The availablility of the condom would only affect the decision of those who didn’t want to have unsafe sex.

lealdragon · October 28, 2006, 1:48pm

Aries, I just tried to send you ‘part 2’ of my previous pm and it said your pm box is full.

jym626 · October 28, 2006, 2:07pm

Hi lealdragon,
I think m&sdad has it right. This discussion has veered way off into serious unpleasantness not even close to being on topic, and I appreciate m&sdad’s humor in his attempt to get this back on track.

That said, I do think, regardless of the reason for an outburst, aries owes berurah an apology. Just as I initially misread her (aires) “sixth circle” comment as “sixth sense” (and didn’t understand it when I misread it), I think she may have misread berurah’s post , and pehaps thought berurah was calling her a whore (she wasn’t- - just the opposite). So, telling berurah to go to h-ll was, IMO, uncalled for. We all know what it feels like to have unkind things said to us. I don’t know too many people who enjoy it.

lealdragon · October 28, 2006, 2:34pm

“seperate thread on the evils of men and their sexual demands”

Well, since it was mentioned here, I’ll start it here.

porn and strip clubs.

(oops, wait, both of those require the participation of women!!!)

m_amp_sdad · October 28, 2006, 2:46pm

New thread, if we really need one.

jym626 · October 28, 2006, 2:57pm

lealdragon-
m&sdad is suggesting to start a new and separate thread on this topic, as opposed to posting it on this thread. So, in a tangential vein, I started a thread on the rights of pedophiles (specifically John Mark Carr of JonBenet Ramsey fame) vs the rights of homeowners in the neighborhood in my metro community where he apparently relocated. More details are in that thread. I am interested in people’s thoughts-- freedom of speech vs the rights of a probable, but never formally convicted pedophile.

lealdragon · October 28, 2006, 3:05pm

“…regardless of the reason for an outburst, aries owes berurah an apology.”

Apologies are always nice. Especially when it’s clear that the people meant well.

I was half-joking in my post about men’s sexual demands. I’m not sure I even want to get started on that one! And I’ll pass on the pedophile thread. It sounds interesting (and sufficiently controversial) but I find I am spending too much time discussing and not enough time working on getting some financial aid lined up for my son’s college.

Back to the original topic of this post: It’s funny how people on some other threads assumed I was male. And I too assumed some were male or female based on their forum names.

Male or Female?

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