Male privilege denialism

I appreciate everybody’s perspective. I want to share, however, that being a woman in tech is an advantage. I work for a large tech company as an engineer. I am an immigrant woman that came to US in her mid twenties. English is my second foreign language, my education (albeit excellent) was not recognized as equivalent, I am not very tall, and I am not even an engineer as I have a degree in Physics. Despite all this, I have a successful career as an engineer and I have never experienced the type of discrimination described above. My company goes out of its way to make me feel welcome and included. There are diversity metrics on which they report every quarter. I am being promoted regularly and my pay is on par. I feel more secure in my career than many of my male colleagues. Our CEO was a woman until she retired.

We also undergo harassment training regularly. In terms of political correctness, US is far ahead of most European countries (think, France).

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I would be MORE than happy to use an accurate term that doesn’t create (or at least amplify) a defensive reaction from men.

What I really want is empathy and understanding, a willingness to tolerate thinking about things that are uncomfortable, and for men to care enough as they say they do, to use that understanding to actively solve issues WITH women.

What I’ve mostly experienced is, the automatic, tired,old knee-jerk pat solutions or excuses thrown out by men who obviously don’t want to think hard about unpleasant things that don’t generally affect their daily lives. Yet the same men say they love and want women in their lives. It’s just a,little incongruent. The missing puzzle piece is denying that these beloved women have limitations that they don’t. Telling women to stay close to home for safety,or telling us that women and men are already equal so, just go out into the world and pull up bootstraps like they do :face_with_diagonal_mouth: yet not wanting to admit they get a kind of freedom of movement in every walk of life that women don’t. I don’t know the word for that.

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Back to the war issue for a moment.

There are a number of women enlistees. There are women in service academies, applying to service academies. There are women who want to join combat. And report after report after report shows that harassment and intimidation and sexual assult targeting service-women by service men is endemic, is expected, another thing women just have to accept as par for the course in this environment. I Know it’s different to have the choice to enlist rather than be forced by the draft (a privilege women do have).

Still, It’s easy to get cynical when men say, well, women don’t have to go to war, when I read that that MOST women volunteering to put themselves out there are eventually punished by male fellow-soldiers for trying to doing their share. What’s with that?

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Can I disagree with both of you? :wink:

When people who have every advantage in life and are very successful end up feeling triggered by this comment, I think it’s ego more than anything, and giving any credit at all to something other than the individual’s hard work is a bruise to the ego.

I recall how my parents always told me to “count my blessings” growing up. This was the idea of having good health, a roof over my head, food to eat, etc, long before DEI was a well-known abbreviation. I find it a bit incongruent that on Thanksgiving or throughout the year we talk about our various blessings, but then at the same time can argue against how those blessings have benefited us in comparison with those who did not have those same blessings.

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Like many posting here, I am white. I fully acknowledge that I have white privilege. That does not mean that I grew up without challenges: my family was on a tight budget when I was growing up (I did not have a lot of things my middle class friends did), I had to work as a teen to provide things like ALL of my clothing (including shoes, underwear, winter coats), toiletries, etc. I did not really have a warm, supportive environment at home, etc. I attended community college before transferring to a 4 year school and yes I worked to help pay for it.

So it’s hard for me to sympathize when a man denies male privilege because he did not grow up wealthy, or had to work.

But being white did has provided me with opportunities that I would not have had otherwise. When I changed careers (in the 1980’s) from healthcare to accounting, the first accounting job I had was in an office with ZERO people of color (this was in Washington DC). I know that had I not been white, I would never have been hired. It was similar in the next place I worked where POC were hired in clerical positions but rarely professional ones. I have frequently been in neighborhoods driving,running walking which were much higher level socioeconomically and no one has ever questioned me as “suspicious” etc.I can give many other examples of how I have benefited just because I am white.

I acknowledge it.

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I missed this post earlier.

I am aware what the word, in isolation means. We are discussing a term involving TWO words, coined and defined by sociologists, so my analysis is in that context and does not change.

ETS (edited to subtract): I deleted the misinformation I posted which indicated @hebegebe only posted the definition of the word when used as a verb.

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And you can thank the fact that at some point, people at that company chose to make sure that you would not experience the discrimination that women older than you experienced. I am almost 65, and I experienced a lot of discrimination in the workplace when I was young. The women a bit older than I had it a lot worse. The women who work at that company today can’t believe what we went through.

Things changed for two reasons: First, laws and lawsuits prompted changes (don’t underestimate the necessity of the legal system in making sure that changes in behavior occur, even if minds and hearts have not changed). Second, enough men began to understand that women were being treated unfairly, and they began to expect change. It was men who pushed for the change and held their male counterparts liable … there weren’t women in positions to effect that change. Enough men in positions of power finally checked their privilege and required their male counterparts to stop expecting women to think that being treated with disrespect was okay. Data point for you: When I worked in manufacturing, a skilled tradesman’s crib area was covered in pictures of naked, spread eagled women. I was told that that’s just how it is … deal with it. Not many years later, that kind of thing was 100% unacceptable, and it would not have been tolerated by the males in charge. I am happy that the men in that environment figured out that the privilege men had long enjoyed on the plant floor … if women don’t like it, they don’t need to work here … needed to be checked.

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well, I am not spring chicken either. I have worked for this company for the last 18 yrs. I don’t doubt things have changed significantly. However, I find some of the professional concerns shared extreme or outdated in the current context. Most of my friends’ daughters, including my own daughter, have been very successful so far professionally, in big law, consultancies, engineering, etc.

In fact, I am more concerned for my son as a white male in tech.

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What I took out of this definition sidetrack is that, ironically, women apparently aren’t even allowed to choose their own understanding of what the phrase “male privilege” means to them, even when their usage conforms to the relevant academic definition, and is no way “a gross misunderstanding of the situation.”

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What specific concerns?

That was an omission, as my focus was on the two examples I quoted were where it was being used as a noun for situations that were acquired or earned after birth (marriage, someone’s trust).

So once again, privilege is not some immutable property of birth.

What I got out of this is that some people want to impose their re-definitions of privilege on everyone, and apparently others don’t have the right to accept the currently existing one. And then use the new definition in situations where you would be punching down. Like I said before: tone deaf.

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Seems like the opposite could be said about the whole premise of this thread. A privilege, or unearned advantage, is pointed out by those with disadvantage. But they are punched down upon for complaining, by the ones historically on top. Also tone deaf.

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I have two white male sons in tech, and I am definitely not concerned they are encountering discrimination at work, nor have they ever mentioned it. Then again, neither of them have ever been the type to bemoan their status as white males and blame anyone else gaining advantage for any loss of opportunities. We didn’t raise them that way.

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And this is where it starts.
I do not believe you raise kids as " I’m better than you."
But I also don’t believe promoting people is only based on color or external factors.
Providing opportunities for all to succeed is the goal–or used to be.

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I think we completely avoided implications that people got more advantages than they did because they were white or male, and never fed into grievances or complaining. The girls in their schools were spectacular, ultra achievers, and I think that’s just what they were used to.

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I don’t follow.

“Male Privilege” is a term of art used in social sciences to refer to unearned advantages/benefits bestowed on men solely based on their gender.

The unearned advantages/benefits part is the “privilege” part, while the “solely based on their gender” is the male part. So if anyone is trying to redefine the phrase, it is not @scubasue.

I do agree that with you that some are being “tone deaf,” but I doubt we agree on to whom your description applies.

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My daughter was born in China under the one-child policy and was found outside of a government building at dawn at about ten days old (as there was no legal way for parents to relinquish a child). Dire, but someone cared about her enough to risk discovery and imprisonment…it would have been far less risky for the adult to just leave her in an empty spot in the countryside, as some were. Was she lucky in that respect? Yes. Was she lucky in general ? You tell me. Yes, and no. Unlike children born into loving families that can care for a child without interruption, she was moved from a children’s home, to two different foster homes and then back to the children’s home before meeting her new permanent parents at almost ten months of age. Think about the bonding that happened between you and your biological children and think about what it would have been like for them if instead they were bounced around like that.

However, this is a happy story. My D p, at 21 is thriving. She has a stable, even-keeled personality. She is smart, loving , sociable and trusting of people she knows well. But still, she can get irrationally, temporarily upset at times of minor transition and her babyhood may have something to do with that.

Harder for her was growing up as one of the only Asian children in our small community, and looking different from her parents. There’s no way to hide being different. Still, she had a lot of great things in her childhood (and says so), very much an American, and has no particular desire to learn about her roots even though I’d encourage that.

Finally getting to the meat of my story. When she was a baby in the US, and well into a highly verbal, perceptive early childhood she had to listen to people telling me, and telling her to her face how lucky she is, to be here in the US, to have parents who love her instead of growing up without a family. As if it had to be drilled into her head. And no other children in the vicinity being told such things, just her. My mother, my sister, neighbors. Even people at my super-progressive religious fellowship. Musing out loud, in front of her, about the miraculous chances that landed her safely in a life of milk and honey. She was made to be super-aware how badly it could have turned out at an age most children are just thinking about their next meal or new game. I knew what they meant, really. They WERE happy for her. But did they think for a minute how it would make a child feel? Singled out? A pitiable charity case? She already had to look different from everyone else. I’d nip it in the bud. There was always a look of confusion on people’s faces, some disagreement. My mom , and lots of other people said some version of, well we should all have more gratitude, why should she not be told she’s lucky?” I had to reply “when was the last time you walked up to a four-year-old White child, born and raised in the same biological white family with no trauma in the process, and felt the need to imprint a sense of gratitude on their part that their parents took them in? Because those children are the luckiest of all. So lucky that they never have to KNOW they’re lucky. That’s real privilege. I’d tell them that I am truly the luckiest of all because I get to be her mother (still true) and that I won’t have my child singled out in this way, made to grow up as a charity case or an exotic accoutrement, She’s my CHILD.

I’m not sure all these people got it. But at least my D got to hear me say it. She is just my child and her dad’s child and that is that.

This doesn’t have anything to do with male privelige denial. But it does have to do with privelige and denial and how swaddled in obliviousness we can all be about all kinds of things when they are not brought to our attention.

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Apologies for claiming you did not post the definition of the word when used as a noun. I updated that post.

As we all know, dictionaries usually don’t define phrases. Moreover, lots of scientific definitions-including those from social science- are not included in dictionary definitions.

As I said in an earlier post-absent a common understanding of the term-these conversations are usually unproductive. I think the OP was clear with the defintion of the term as he wanted to discuss it. Others create their own definitions which leads to folks opining on completely different conditions/experiences.

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I got the part that “Male privilege” referred solely to males. That much was obvious. But this part of the discussion started off with @scubasue saying:

They was it was used there, it meant to me that in this model of Privileges, that the particular circumstances of a person’s life were irrelevant. So it ignores the benefits of earned privileges like higher incomes, safer neighborhoods. I pushed back on that.

And regarding the second part of your statement above, I also find the “advantages/benefits” part so problematic that I am wondering if I am missing something. Because from what you wrote, being a male only only provides advantages in this model, completely ignoring that there are negative impacts as well.