Male privilege denialism

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@MarylandJOE , who is this society made up of that is failing to protect women? We women are doing everything in our power to change society to do just that! But we are only half of that society ! The other side, the side that is doing most of the harassing and raping among its members, where is that side in figuring out how to protecting women from its most unruly cohorts?

Despite the gains women have made, despite the fact that 60% of college students are now women, most people in actual positions of power are men (CEO’s with the influence money can buy, politicians in high office, Supreme Court Justices, other judges, police officer) and many of them sure seem to sideline this issue or even try to keep women out of any chance to have a role in society outside of the home, and are accelerating this backward movement lately. Where is the male half of society in creating a safe environment for women from their kind? Is it all on women’s shoulders to solve? Men rape women and it’s a “women’s issue?” We are told by one half of society it is of supreme importance for our happiness to be attractive to men, and we’re also told, essentially, in being attractive, it’s just a fact: we will be raped so get over it.

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No need to quote or tag me. My opinion as a male that disagrees is not desired. I’m sure it’s my male privilege that is skewing my thought process.

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See above.

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That’s just the kind of cop-out we are referring to.

You refer to some vague entity (society). I asked a legitimate question: women in society, have been trying to address the rape question for a long time, but we can only do so much by ourselves. Where are men in addressing such things as women and girls reporting rape treated with hostility by the police and court system, rape kits as evidence not used cases by the thousands not investigated, rapksts getting off with light sentences, men turning a blind eye or a wink wink about harassment or demeaning words about women?

And that’s when you cut out. Is it hostile and toxic of me to state a fact, that violence to women is endemic in ways most men can be untouched by most days, and to ask, in your opinion, what do you think “ nice” men can do about this that they aren’t doing now? Because men are still the most powerful actors in this scenario and women can’t do it alone. Its not possible to address an issue that you don’t think exists.

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Our inherent privileges—of whatever sort—absolutely inform our thought processes.

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MarylandJoe is telling you, nicely, that he feels this thread is toxic to men, in part because of statements like yours.

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How is that toxic? The sarcastic barbs and unwillingness to consider that what the women are saying has a strong ring of truth and are asking for understanding seems toxic.

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I will be the first to admit that I have a lot of privilege. I have the privilege of two loving parents that emphasized education. I have the privilege of earning multiple college degrees. I have the privilege of having earned high incomes, allowing me to live in safe neighborhoods. Couple all that with being a male, and therefore minimal risk of sexual assault, and yeah, I’ve got it pretty good.

Where I push back, and push back hard, is extending that “male privilege” to all males who don’t have the other privileges that I was born with or earned.

I respect many of you disagreeing with me, so I will say this as respectfully as I can. Saying that all men have privilege is extraordinarily tone deaf, and it’s also the type of attitude that leads to people being elected who can then tap into that aggrievance from the pushback.

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And I’m saying as nicely as possible, about a not-nice topic, rape is toxic to women.

Which is worse ? Rape? Or being asked to take it seriously and to help address it, to believe it’s something to take seriously, to believe it’s something that limits where women can feel safe living, working and recreating on an everyday basis.

Sorry, @hebegebe , I just realized I sent this reply to the wrong post. My response (obviously) doesn’t pertain to this, it pertains to the other comment: that what is being said by women on the thread is toxic

My reply is that you’re illustrating the very thing we’re trying to say. That if YOU choose you can simply escape a conversation with strangers that feels toxic to you about a subject that is unpleasant, whereas we cannot…just like that… escape the toxicity of harassment and potential rape shadowing our lives. You can avoid it, easily. We cannot. And we cannot create change fast enough on our own without the help of millions of men like you. Men who don’t want to deal with the issue head on.

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Two of the three most important people in my life are women (my wife and daughter). Why would you think that I don’t care about the safety of women?

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If I am tall, I can reach anything on the top shelves of the store, I can see easily over the top of a crowd, I can do tasks quickly and easily without needing to go fetch ladders and step stools, and it will take me fewer strides to walk anywhere with my long legs.

If I am tall, I have an advantage that people who are shorter, don’t have.

It is what it is: it really would be silly to pretend that those top shelves aren’t easily in reach for me. One could say it’s a privilege to be tall, based on how infrastructure is built.

But I am actually a short woman; when I go to the store, if I want something on the top shelf I have to find someone to reach it for me. Shopping takes longer, because sometimes it takes several minutes to find someone, and to circle back to the item I wanted. It really would be nice to be taller, because then I could go through the grocery store easily and quickly. But stores aren’t built for shorter people, they’re built for taller people.

Yet I am also a white woman in her 50s. When I go to a store I can pay for drink or a couple of items, decline a bag (because I don’t need to waste a bag on an item or two), and I can walk right out the front door. No one will stop me and ask me if I paid for that drink. Because I look the way I do, I can confidently walk out of a store and people assume that I went through the checkout line. It would be silly to pretend that I am not treated differently because of the way I look.

I also have a white son. He can wear a hoodie and go for a run, and people will assume he is jogging. Because of the way he looks. As his mother, I do not have to worry about someone thinking he has stolen something and is running away, and they might chase him down and harm him because he’s wearing a hoodie and running and thus must be suspicious. It would be silly to pretend that people don’t respond differently to a Black teenager with a hoodie, running down the street.

If I am a man at my company, no one questions whether or not I am a “diversity hire” or if I was “just hired because I was a woman.” I am an employee, and my hiring and employment is neutral. It would be silly to pretend that people don’t speculate about why a woman was hired.

If I am a man in the workplace no one talks about how I “slept my way to the top” or speculates who I performed sexual favors on to get my foot in the door. It would be silly to pretend these comments aren’t made, privately and in public. Endlessly.

We all have different types of unearned privileges based on how our society is structured. I’ve outlined some of my privileges, and it doesn’t knock any shine off of me to admit that they make things easier for me in life. It’s silly and weird to pretend that they don’t exist.

And it’s silly and weird to point out that explaining this to men is being toxic to men, or misandrist, or man hating, or whatever reactionary response it may “provoke.”

I’m going to repeat this part below again, and say it plainly: men don’t have to deal with this, because they’re men, that is male privilege.

If I am a man at my company, no one questions whether or not I am a “diversity hire” or if I was “just hired because I was a woman.” I am an employee, and my hiring and employment is neutral. It would be silly to pretend that people don’t speculate about why a woman was hired.

If I am a man in the workplace no one talks about how I “slept my way to the top” or speculates who I performed sexual favors on to get my foot in the door. It would be silly to pretend these comments aren’t made, privately and in public. Endlessly.

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Nailed it perfectly. If someone had an iota of empathy and even a slightly open mind, I think they could understand what you’re saying.

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Below is the question asked by OP and has been rephrased a couple of times (emphasis mine.)

It seems that the “why deny” reasons that have been listed so far are not earning much traction from the audience. That doesn’t mean that males can’t post their contrary opinions, or that the opinions aren’t desired. It also doesn’t mean the audience should accept those opinions and leave those posts as the last word. They are allowed to push back and continue to ask WHY DENY?

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Great post @AustenNut. Wealthy, smart white women enjoy those privileges. The disadvantage of being a woman may be outweighed by those privileges in comparison to a poor immigrant man of color. That man, however, may have the privilege of being male in comparison to his sister or female friend in similar socio-econmic circumstances. He still can walk around generally without fear of being raped. If he engages in certain behaviors he may be more likely to be a victim of violent crime. If he does not, but lives in a dangerous area, he (along with local females) may also be more likely to be a victim of violent crime then the wealthy white women.

He may also be able to get a job in a male-dominated field and not be thought of as a gender diversity hire as a woman would be.

The intersection of various levels or privilege and disadvantage is complex, expecially on a personal level. I can acknowledge my privilege as a relatively smart white woman in a professional job, but also see the additional level of privilege afforded to my male colleagues when they assume that the women will get the coffee, take the meeting notes, and defer to the men in a meeting. I see that fading to some extent, but not entirely in my engineering world.

Off topic question: Why is my spellcheck no longer working on these posts??

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I get that. Maybe saying that all men have privilege as a blanket statement is aggravating, and I know it causes resentment. Certainly I’ve seen things like being raised in a family background where you haven’t felt loved and valued, you have been abused or suffered terrible tragedy, mental illness or being far on the spectrum can override any other advantage you might have.

It does surprise me, though, when men who are very successful in life and have every advantage are so triggered by this. I understand why people who have huge obstacles, why they would be defensive, however.

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I was referring to another poster trying to pass the whole problem off as a solution to be solved by the vague entity of society rather than say that, yes, women are suffering disproportionately from this pervasive issue at the hands of offenders who are predominately men, therefore it’s something all caring men should be willing to “walk the walk” with women in, in gaining sufficient awareness in order to empathize, to understand and to put their heads together with ours to solve: not just rape itself but the many, many repercussions of the possibility of rape that limits women in our daily lives. And Not just rape but the thousand of demeaning signals many men give off to other men to consolidate support, and to women to control them (largely tolerated by “nice” men because it’s so normalized).

I’m not accusing caring men of directly perpetuating rape. I’m asking for acknowledgement that, yes, caring men often look away from things they’re uncomfortable thinking about, and in doing so, leave women hanging. There is no magical “society” to deal with it, It is up to all of us.

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All men have male privilege.

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I think @busdriver answered it well. To expand on that, I believe telling men who faced a lot of disadvantages in life that they have “male privilege” is telling them that they would have achieved even less without this “privilege”. It’s an insult to them, and if someone is already apprehensive about their situation, you’ve just created an enemy rather than an ally.

Because they’re selfish.

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Seems that grievance bias is a significant factor. People generally tend to be more aware of unfair disadvantages that they themselves face, while not noticing unfair advantages to themselves or unfair disadvantages that others face as much.

This grievance bias is accentuated by unfair advantages often being the lack of bad things (e.g. not being targeted for rape or sexual battery) while unfair disadvantages are often bad things that happen (e.g. being more likely to be suspected of a crime). That an unfair advantage is merely the absence of something bad happening makes it less obvious to the person who has it.

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Nah, I agree with what you said besides that. I think the word “privilege” automatically brings on a reaction, amplified by the media that latches onto grievance politics. I don’t think it’s being selfish.