Males Under 35: Are they struggling and what can be done about it?

Here’s an article from the Wall Street Journal on the topic. I believe this is a free link:

https://www.wsj.com/lifestyle/careers/young-american-men-lost-c1d799f7?st=eCYv89&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink

A few tidbits from the article:

  • There are 700k fewer men aged 25-34 employed or looking for work than there would have been if participation was at the rate it was in 2004.

  • 20% of men in this age range live at home, compared to 12% of women.

  • 8.6% of men and 7.8% of women aged 16-29 are NEET (noncaregivers who aren’t disabled, and aren’t employed, in school, or in workforce training).

  • The pandemic affected young men worse than many women as men tend to rely on in-person activities to maintain their social connections (in contrast with, say, picking up a phone and talking with someone).

  • Men aged 18-30 spent 18% more time alone (avg. 6.6 nonsleeping hours/day) in 2023 than in 2019, which is 22% more more alone time than women in the same age group.

  • Almost 2/3 of 18-30 year old men in a poll said that nobody knew them well and 25% said they’d hadn’t seen anyone outside of their home in the past week.

  • The suicide rate for men aged 25=34 is up 30% between 2010 and 2023, the highest of any age group.

  • Additionally, there was a point made that a lot of the young men don’t feel needed like they think previous generations of men were and so they don’t have as much direction of what they want their future to look like.

So, this is more about some of the issues facing males 18-35, but where does that leave those of us who want to help the situation? I’m thinking about some of these possibilities:

  • Get more social engagement…the men need to stop bowling alone. Rather than playing video games alone, have multiple screens at a rec center for people to play together in the same physical space. Have intramural/rec leagues for adults. Our local community tends to do things up until age 18, and then there’s nothing. But continue to create spaces for continued interaction, whether basketball, ultimate frisbee, pickleball, whatever.

  • We need to normalize the discussion of feelings and emotions and remove any stigma from doing so, as there seems to be much more stigma for men than for women with respect to discussing topics that are of greater emotional significance.

  • We need to continue to rip up gender stereotypes and expectations. If young men are being raised with the expectation of being their family’s breadwinner, and that such a position is limited to certain professions with a high bar for entry (many of the fields that kids come on CC wanting) or in disappearing industries (i.e. manufacturing and union jobs), then they can feel lost when those options don’t seem obtainable. Making it okay for them to dream of being stay-at-home dads or elementary school teachers or nurses (which more males are doing now) or potters or whatever other career that might have generally been gendered towards females.

Anyone want to share other thoughts?

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Well this article is interesting—a bunch of anecdotes. I agree that it can take a bit longer to “launch” than before, for men and women. Two of my nieces had to try a bunch of options before deciding what direction they wanted to pursue. One ended up as a doctor of osteopathy, one ended up as a teacher. Another family friend had their D and her H come back the HI and flounder for quite a while looking for jobs. They had had jobs in the UK but could only get gig jobs in Honolulu. Finally, the guy got a job helping with inventory and stocking at Costco as well as working at an afterschool sports program and the D became a teacher like her folks. After several years, the guy decided he would start his own sports program for very young kids, like his own child (now children). It’s been quite successful and allowed him to quit his Costco job.

The friends’ S also floundered. He had been doing education curriculum but decided he wanted to join the military and get trained as an air traffic controller, so he did that. His family has had to follow him around where he’s been stationed but so far it’s been working out for them.

I guess these people I know floundered WITH their college degrees while the people in the article interviewed don’t have that to fall back on. There is more blurring and challenge in finding the right jobs that work and provide enough support for the individual.

Depression and mental health issues can also play a role of course. Chronic health issues can also play a role. One of my two kids has chronic health issues that have stood in her way and made it impossible for her to ever work a full 8-hour shift ever so far in her life.

Not having friends would definitely be isolating and I would be very very sad if I or people I cared about felt they had NO close friends. Having social connections is REALLY important, even if you don’t see them in person as often as you’d like.

Sorry my reactions are all over the place, but I am trying to provide honest reactions to this article.

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Sorry but that sounds like a hugely female-centric approach to male issues that I can’t imagine meeting with favorable reactions, let alone succeeding.

I don’t think you realize how immensely social video gaming is nowadays: even though kids are doing it in their own home, they are using a headset and talking non-stop as they collaborate with the same group of friends for hours every day. That’s partly why it’s so addictive, because it does provide such a great social experience, but it doesn’t provide the same skills as in-person activities, or more importantly have a gender balance. You don’t meet many girls when videogaming. And you don’t get physically fit or otherwise need to take care of your appearance.

I also don’t understand why you’d suggest that men should “dream of being stay-at-home dads or elementary school teachers or nurses” when we have talked elsewhere about the shortage of tradespeople like plumbers and the high pay available in these jobs. How is an ambition to be a “stay-at-home dad” going to find them a spouse in the first place?

I’ve been surprised how prevalent gender expectations are in dating: my D tells me she always expects guys to buy her a drink when she goes out. When she goes out with her friends, the boyfriend of one of them will often buy a round for all the girls as a point of male pride (he works in fast food, so that’s at least half a day’s wages!). That means guys need a job before they are going to get even a first date, let alone a partner.

I don’t have good answers to cracking the addictiveness of video games. But we should think about how college has become a female-centric space (both numerically and politically) that parents “expect” their sons to attend (as is discussed in the article) and how that’s backfiring and causing them to become lost and drop out. Why aren’t parents more encouraging about trade school or other options for providing direction and structure like joining the military? What you are suggesting simply doubles down on that problem. How are guys going to become elementary school teachers or nurses if they can’t get through the required college courses?

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My D plays a lot of online games as a way of staying in touch with real life friends and relatives that live far from one another. They regularly schedule it. I think having online contacts can help bridge distances.

I’m not sure why so many people are or feel “stuck” and I don’t have answers.

But why not encourage young men to pursue careers such as teaching or nursing? I see a lot of complaining about lack of male teachers in the schools. And with an aging population, why shouldn’t men be looking at careers in nursing/allied health care?

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It sounds like what you are saying is that non-gendering expectations is a female-centered approach, and I think that that mindset is part of the problem.

Also, that “men expected to pay” approach is also part of the problem. Many women don’t expect men to pay, and those that do are perpetuating the problem of men thinking they can’t make enough money to be traditional breadwinners like men of yore, when a more non-gendered approach would alleviate that pressure of unrealistic expectations.

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I understand that gamers are using headsets and communicating with others. But as you mentioned, it’s the in-person aspect that’s missing. And if the people would meet in-person for gaming, then they would probably be more likely to go out for a bite to eat together afterwards or do something where they continue to build on their social skills and social network, potentially even moving to the point where they talk about more vulnerable topics.

Yes, we can and should be encouraging people to enter the trades as well. But I think that part of the issue is that over the decades, the number of “appropriate” fields for women has blown wide open while the number of “appropriate” fields for men has remained largely static. Fifty years ago, many women felt limited to occupations were largely limited to teaching, nursing, secretarial work, and cleaning. So if there was a female who wanted to be an engineer or a mechanic, well, tough. Society has taken down barriers for women’s expected careers, and I am saying that they should be doing the same for males. If a male would prefer to be a plumber or an electrician, fabulous! But if he wants to be an interior designer or preschool teacher, fabulous, too!

Although the topic of dating and romantic relationships has arisen in other parts of the thread, that wasn’t mentioned in the article or by me. I won’t go down the path of dating norms and who pays for what, but I will say that there was definitely a movement of validating the state of living alone and being partnerless for women. That a woman’s worth wasn’t determined by whether she had a romantic partner. Nonfamous men should be granted that same courtesy. So if a guy is enjoying hiking on the weekend, and gaming on weeknights, and enjoying his job as a secretary, and doesn’t have a romantic partner, more power to him! But I think that a guy like that might not necessarily be happy today because there is still a lot of social derision or negative surprise at such a situation, so the guys don’t see it as being okay to be happy as a single secretary and having a fulfilled life.

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It’s not fabulous if he needs a college degree to get into those professions, and can’t complete four years of college. It’s worse if he incurs a bunch of debt then drops out and is further behind than when he started.

The “stuck” young men highlighted in the article all went to college and then dropped out seemingly due to challenges in managing their classes and daily living activities. It doesn’t sound like they dropped out because of financial pressures.

Whether it’s trades or other things like the military, we need to stop forcing kids into college who don’t know why they are there and can’t cope. Let them go back later when they are more mature and know what they want. The question is what the alternatives are to sitting at home videogaming at age 19.

And we need to stop credential inflation that forces kids to (try and) get degrees for jobs that shouldn’t need them. If you want more men in some of the female-centric jobs like childcare or elder care, then stopping the move to require college degrees as an entry point to those professions would be a good start. That’s one way to “take down barriers” but in practice there are more moves in the opposite direction.

The kids in the family from Miami dropped out because they didn’t see the point in continuing to attend with no goal in mind. The other kid did drop out because of too much partying.

I agree.

In my neck of the woods, people can enter these professions without an associate degree. I’m not even sure if they require a high school diploma (I certainly know of a home health aide who does not have a high school diploma).

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Yes, and a real improvement would be to raise the salaries of people doing those jobs, which would benefit both the women already in the professions, and the men who might be interested in them.

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There’s also the issue of unrealistic expectations. There are many who have these. Vet school is said to be one of the MOST competitive fields sbd you can’t just sort of wish your way into it. Maybe you can be a vet tech or something but being a vet is said to be tougher than getting into med school.

Perhaps shadowing something they might want to be so they had some purpose when they had to do the less exciting bits of college or other training might help them stay focused or going on to college or training after working awhile and being more focused on what they want or need like the people I know.

I just discovered this thread and think it’s a fascinating topic. I read a book by Richard Reeves (who was quoted in the WSJ article posted by @AustenNut) called Of Boys and Men: Why the Modern Male is Struggling and What to Do About It. Even as the mother of an only-child D, I found the book extremely interesting and have heard some of D’s male friends make reference to some of the issues noted in the book.

I think a lot of men are feeling increasingly silenced in society–“woke-ism” and micro-aggressions and a pro-woman stance have left many young men feeling vilified. The facts and reality to support this claim are debatable, but according to the research, the perception and emotional experience seem very real to many young men. I think this also explains why we’re seeing a rise in conservatism among young men.

As the mother of a daughter, I’ve been very mindful about modeling and speaking about women’s issues and women’s rights/empowerment, but I wonder if I would have been as conscious of this had I had son. I might have assumed society was taking care of that messaging–and if anything, I would have been very cognizant of raising a son who is respectful and supportive of women and girls. I still think this is very important, but articles like the one posted above the book by Richard Reeves have convinced me that in our effort to elevate the confidence and position of women–something that clearly needed to be done–we’ve left a lot of young men with a lack of clarity about their role and value in society.

I think @AustenNut is correct that for women, the opportunities have expanded (which is great!), through programs that focus on Women in STEM or Women Leaders and other similar programs. Men get more of a double-message about being in touch with their feminine side, but not too in touch as to be emasculated. It’s a fine line.

I’m very interested in what mothers of sons observe and hear from their boys on this topic.

Edited to add: When I say “woke-ism” and micro-aggressions above, I’m not using the terms pejoratively. I’m saying that based on my reading, I think a lot of men feel that this focus has made them wary of open dialogue and expression–with female peers, in class or the workplace, and in society at large. Again, I’m not opining as to whether they are factually correct, just noting that the research suggests that this is a common experience for men, especially young men.

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LOL! What about fathers of sons? :wink:

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UGH!! You caught me! Here I am trying to be inclusive and I left out dads. :frowning: I clearly need to keep working to check my own gender bias.

YES! I absolutely want to hear from fathers both about how (or if) they feel things have changed from their own generation and for their sons.

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Honestly, no offense taken, I just found it funny.

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Lol. Thanks for being good natured about it. I appreciate the gentle reminder. But please do share your thoughts. I’m truly interested in hearing what young men are saying and what parents are observing.

I almost always agree with you :slight_smile: but in this case, I’m not sure. I think maybe the lack of expectations on our boys is hurting them. They are in more trouble now than they were a few decades ago. I think a lot of boys need clear structure and expectations and I’m not sure they’re getting that. I don’t think that needing to be the breadwinner is important necessarily but getting the message that men are valuable and necessary parts of society, I think is vital.

I’m also not sure what we can do about video games but obviously lots of men have no issues managing their time with them and it’s a big problem for others.

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My S is in his early 30’s. He does not feel that “society” is somehow making young men feel bad about themselves or that woke-ism is driving them toward conservatism. He recognizes that some of his peers feel that way, but he thinks it’s their own fault for believing the stuff out there on the internet that tells them that the world is against young men. There are a lot of very disgruntled guys who are blaming their lack of whatever they define as success on people being anti-guy. His take is that both young men and young women are living in a world that is harder to navigate than it was in the past. They are bombarded 24/7 by news (real and not so real), they are fed online by influencers who want to capitalize on chaos, many feel that they are starting out in a financial hole due to massive student loan debt, housing prices continue to climb, jobs that pay well are sometimes difficult to find, pay doesn’t seem to have kept up with costs, etc. He recognizes that it’s rough out there - he’s struggling, too - but he doesn’t think it’s just guys who have it rough.

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Our boys are an anomaly in a sense. Yes, we raised them to be self sufficient, productive members of society with a strong work ethic, but they ended up with an advantage over most young men that went through the Covid lockdowns.

Our older son was a sophomore in college when the world shut down. He was 500 miles away from home and all of his roommates went home, leaving him alone in his apartment. We bought him exercise equipment and shipped it to his apartment. He turned the living room into a gym. By the middle of April he had joined the local volunteer rescue squad and began working on an ambulance. From that point on he had a built in friend group, and he was constantly interacting with citizens. In early January of 2021 he was one of the first people in his state to receive the Covid vaccine because of his first responder status. After that, virtually every one of his EMS friends were vaccinated. They loosened their protocols around each other at that point. Things became much more normal for them. I believe that continued social interaction made a huge difference for the entire group’s mental health, regardless of gender.

Our younger son was a serious athlete on track to be recruited in his sport. His club team was very good, and very expensive. They had a history of turning out college athletes and they didn’t intend for Covid to break their recruiting class streak. Even in MA, where we were very locked down, they continued to hold practices. It’s an outdoor sport, so the risk was low(er). They practiced five days a week. That time with his teammates every day, exercising and socializing, was so beneficial for a group of 16 and 17-year-olds.

We definitely held a pretty hard line on gaming. They had Xbox and Playstation, but they were both very athletic so we made sure to emphasize that and discourage time in the basement with a game controller in their hands.

Our boys share a lot with us. They’ve never expressed feelings of frustration about being “left behind,” or targeted. If anything, they joke about victim culture among people in their age group. The older son is definitely a man of fewer words than his younger brother, but both sure do speak their minds when the time comes. Both have long term girlfriends and large friend groups that include males, females, straight people, gay people and many different races/nationalities. The socializing makes a huge difference in their lives, and for that I am glad.

As a dad, I can also tell you neither of my kids are perfect. They make their fair share of mistakes. Thankfully those mistakes haven’t been major, but sometimes I can make them feel major. :wink:

I truly believe young men are feeling left behind, and in some respect they are. I think K-12 is geared more towards the learning style of female students, but that shouldn’t be insurmountable for generally motivated males. Honestly, I have to believe it’s becoming easier for young men to get admitted to colleges than women at this point, or it will be soon, because of the continued enrollment disparity by gender. I don’t believe adding more women to the workforce should be viewed as an issue for men either, unless it actually becomes discriminatory(I don’t believe that’s currently the case).

As with most things in life this can be viewed on a spectrum. On one end are parents that aren’t doing enough to encourage, or discipline their sons. On the other end are the hyper focused parents that push too hard, and sometimes burn their sons out. In the middle are families that are engaged but their sons may, or may not be.

Boys/young men receive a lot of the blame pie as far as I’m concerned. Life isn’t fair. Things almost never go as planned. People won’t always be there to bail them out. In my mind many young men have become significantly less motivated to succeed in a traditional sense. No man in his late twenties or early thirties should be living under his parent’s roof(unless there is a significant medical reason, or a disaster destroyed their own home). Our oldest graduated from college with a job and got an apartment. I expect our younger son to graduate from college/grad school and do the same. I love spending time with our boys, and as they get older that time dwindles, but encouraging them to adult on their own is more important than any parent wanting to have them around more.

I am 100% for men(and women for that matter) going into the trades. Both of my sons have friends working with their hands, and every one of them is making good, if not great money. They also both have friends that went directly into the military. Some of those friends really needed the structure of the military at that point in their lives. Again, all of them are doing very well. A lot of young boys wanted to be police officers or firefighters as kids. Well, now’s your chance, go sign up. I’d love to see more male nurses and teachers, but again, there is a significant educational commitment for those careers. Hell, become a bartender or a waiter. I know some in those professions that make six figures.

If there is a will, there’s a way. It’s the “will” part that needs to be repaired in many cases. No job is below someone that is living with their parents and playing video games all day.

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Our S seems to be navigating ok. He was an engineer but also had a part time job, selling items on Amazon. He made several times his fulltime income doing his part time job so during covid, he took a leave of absence and further grew his part time job while being in Honolulu with us and helping with aging grandparents. Eventually he quit the fulltime job and continues to make an excellent living with his own business.

There are many folks of both genders who struggle because careers and paths are not well defined or may not attract them. Some are able to work and find their footing and some even take courses while working. Others need more time and prodding to find their way. There’s no one size fits all.

I don’t think it’s fair to blame women for “stealing” good jobs that men would otherwise have been able to get. It’s true that when I was growing up, I was lucky to have many incredible teachers that could otherwise have been in other professions but very few women in the 60s and 70s were outside teaching, nursing and secretarial positions.

Maybe we need more co-op’s and apprenticeships so all youth can better match their skills to future professions? We really need a lot of folks to help with caring for our young and elders—would be great if more could make
a comfortable living in those fields.

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