In a different thread with more than 350 posts, @88jm19 shared information about a podcast.
Although it relates to some of the themes discussed in that initial thread and in this other one (make sure to make it past the first 16 posts if you plan on reading it!), those threads have already been pretty well-established (ahem, lengthier) and might be intimidating for others to join the conversation. Thus, I’m starting a new thread for discussion.
For those who prefer text to audio/video, here are a couple of resources:
I will say that the title of the podcast episode (and the other thread title) can be misleading, but if you look at the content that is shared, it’s thought-provoking. I’ve retyped part of the transcript below, which was probably a computer-generated one, so not perfect, but I think it provides some context about the perspective that is shared:
When we say young men are killing themselves at 3 times the rate as young women, we use terms like accountability or say things, well, if they just opened up more about their emotions or they need to get their act together. And that is we’ve decided when it comes to men, compassion is a 0 sum game. And that if you feel bad for men, it immediately kind of outs you as someone who might be anti-women or who’s gotten a red pill. Because, The void, the statistics are just staggering.
4 times more likely to be addicted, 12 times more likely to be incarcerated. And because nobody was talking openly and honestly about those very real issues, that void created opportunity for what I think are some unproductive voices to fill that void and start speaking to these men. And naturally a lot of people now have a gag reflex when they hear people talking about the problems around men. So the first is we need to frame the problem as This is a real issue that requires and deserves compassion and our sympathy.
It’s not a 0 sum game. Civil rights didn’t hurt white people. Gay marriage didn’t in any way diminish heteronormative marriage. And so the first is to have a conversation that this is a group that’s struggling and to stop using terms like accountability and somehow blaming them for their own problems here.
With all of that said, I’m starting this thread for anyone who wants to share in a thoughtful, respectful conversation that CC has shown it can do really well.
Do you think that males in the U.S. are struggling, particularly those under the age of 35?
What can families do to help the situation? What can our schools do? Society?
Feel free to share related resources, questions, etc.
This may sound flip, but it is not at all intended to be.
I think video games and gaming culture are partly to blame. For many boys, gaming is a main activity and forms the social world they live in. Everything else–especially boring school, boring jobs, and boring lives–pales in comparison from a dopamine perspective.
In their video game, they get to be immersed in a world where they are the main character, and exciting things happen, and they solve problems. The real world is just less interesting and exciting, and having to be a bit player in a sad and confusing reality sucks when you can be a hero through your headset.
I’m not saying that there aren’t good things about gaming, and that there aren’t skills that people learn, etc. I just worry that because it is so fun and exhilarating other less exciting things fall to the back burner and life feels dull.
Adding - as I stated in my opening sentence, I think gaming might be part of the problem, certainly not the whole thing. I think the biggest individual contributor to the problem is that the role of men is undergoing a huge change as women are no longer held back to the extent they were previously. Before, men at least knew they had a role as primary breadwinner of the family. But now wives can outperform and outearn their husbands, all while still being the primary caretakers for their children. I think men are losing their coveted role as the presumptive leader at work and in the home and that is a hard (though necessary) transition.
I’m not sure I agree with this. As a man that has been part of a family where my wife is a high earner that also still does many domestic duties, I don’t see where this has affected me negatively. In many ways it takes some of the financial burden that men may have felt previously off of our shoulders. I don’t see it as a competition or a negative if my spouse warms more than me. It doesn’t make me feel less accomplished or less of a man. Together we make a great team. I personally would prefer to have a partner that is successful in many endeavors.
I do think that men and women are different in many ways biologically, hormonally, etc. It should be an interesting discussion.
I think it’s correct in the sense that many men (not you, @MarylandJOE ) feel a diminishment because they were told they had a role that doesn’t exist anymore. Too often the message is “you lost something” not “this different world is better for men AND women,” and that story causes a feeling of struggling for something from the past.
If I had to choose a main theory, it is negative story-telling. As someone said above, it’s NOT a zero sum game, but a lot of young men are being told the story that it IS, and thus, they are losing.
Patriarchy was bad for men AND women. Understanding that lives together can be a partnership, not a hierarchy, should be the story being told.
And with work, too. For a long time, basically forever till recently, it was men winning at school, going to college, getting good jobs. Or not going to college, yet getting good jobs like union jobs, good-paying service jobs (police, firemen, etc) without as much so-called "competition. Now that some of those routes are opened up to everyone, a young man could conclude that he’d lost something, rather than think, “I’m going to work harder, nothing can be taken for granted.”
Now add that to a society that is squeezing out those good-paying jobs, with automation and union-antipathy, etc., and the messages that “they’re out to get you” or “the deck is stacked a gainst you” resonats unless they’re countered with better messages.
I have heard Scott Galloway talk about the decline of men on CNN several times over the years. He makes a lot of good points, but finding and enacting real world solutions has been tough. I have heard it from my wife (a high school Chemistry teacher), from my friends, and from interactions with acquaintances that young women have been thriving while young men seem to be less motivated and struggle at much higher rates.
I have seen young men who are content living with their technology and their bros while living an isolated life. Online gaming has made hanging out with friends with like passions easy. Online dating has made the art of “small talk” and reading subtle context clues obsolete for young men. Young men going up to a woman to an ask for a number? That’s pretty much a bygone era from the conversations I have almost daily with young men.
Women have some “skin” in this game as I believe more and more will become “Involuntarily Single” in the next decade because of the changes in the male population and the lack of men on the same levels from an educational standpoint. More and more men are not looking for a woman to be his wife or even be in a committed relationship because they are getting most of their needs met in front of a screen and with their friend groups.
I think the issues begin long before a man is married to a high earning wife.
I also think men’s voices are the most important to be heard on this issue. Imagine the reaction if a man opined “the biggest problem women have today is _____”.
We are very, very happy and relieved S found DIL and the two of them have built a strong relationship together. S has never as graceful socially as D—DIL has helped him increase his social awareness and build his social skills over the 7 years they’ve been together. I believe he’s helped her with financial prowess and other important skills as well.
I do believe video gaming has played a role in keeping men less social than women.
I don’t know why we ever have equated “success” with the size of a paycheck.
Any human whose job makes a meaningful impact on society (say, teachers) should be held to as high an esteem as a human (male or female) who makes six figures. Shame on us for making anyone feel otherwise.
I will read this discussion with interest. But also will say, you can change the title from “male” to female”, the age from “under 35” to “over 45” - the fact is, HUMANS are struggling.
How can we help all who struggle enough that waking up in the morning or moving forward in life is not so cumbersome?
One more comment….I’m not here or there for the comment on gaming being a factor….sure it could be….but if it is, do CC’ers - the parents of these males/humans accept some of the blame for the screens and non-limitations we put in front of our offspring when they were kids? Just thinking.
I’m not a man and haven’t raised any so maybe what I say doesn’t matter here at all. But I did work in a male-dominated profession for 30 years. And I think the idea of domination is central here. Our cultural understanding of masculinity has been linked to domination for a long time. And now, we are saying that men need to let go of that idea. We are not going to let them be dominant just because of gender identity. We don’t need people to subdue the earth, we need people to take care of it. Women don’t want to be dominated on the whole. And some men are fine with that. And other men can’t figure out what it means to be a man without it. So we get these men’s identity movements that are about reasserting supremacy. We get kids addicted to video games where they are the dominant character and the aim is to subdue everyone else in the game. And their heroes are the few dominant billionaires. But the real world doesn’t function like that anymore if it ever really did for most men.
I can speak to this one as my son is an avid gamer. My wife and I put real limits on the amount of time my son could play games (Not at all during the week when he was young and 2 hours a day on the weekend). We even limited his gaming time over the summers when he had lots of free time. We put his systems in our closet for months at a time when he was not performing to expectations at school. But even when it was taken away, he was thinking about it and planning a career around it.
I see some of the same behaviors we have talked about in my introverted son, who is now a graduating college senior applying for jobs with salaries ranging from 85K-130K as a CS Major with a Math and Japanese minor). Even as a so called “success” from an academic perspective and as a fairly attractive male who is 5’10” and very fit (6-pack), I am not sure that he will ever have a significant other, because he has not been interested in dating despite interest recently shown by attractive, intelligent women. But he was ignored in high school and for a few years in college by women so he doesn’t understand what has changed.
So to answer your question, I do accept responsibility, but I am not sure that anything could have prevented my son going down his current path. At least he listened when I told him to “monetize your passions” so that work doesn’t have to feel like work. But I can acknowledge that it could have gone very wrong too (and still could with lots of negative influences online).
It sounds like you as parents did implement standards and limitations. Good for you. Even if your sun lands in that field he may still have some regulation with how he consumes in our out of work - because of the boundaries you set and how they may have internalized.
One of the threads that Galloway discussed is the impact of our education system. Quite a bit of effort has been invested in raising girls up but not boys. You can see this in all the engineering programs specifically for girls. Additionally, typical boy-behavior is frowned upon, so it should not be a surprise when some boys take refuge in video games where boy behaviors are rewarded.
Looking at college enrollments it seems like the efforts to encourage the girls is working. I wonder when or if similar effort will be placed on bringing in more boys?
My H could have written your same post