Males Under 35: Are they struggling and what can be done about it?

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So I’ve been following this thread but have been too busy the last several months to sit, gather my thoughts and contribute to the discussion. However now I’d like to chime in with some opinions.

First, when it comes to the topic (“Males Under 35: Are they struggling and what can be done about it?”) I believe the answer is yes…BUT the question is how high a priority should it be?

If you have a loved one who is struggling (unhappy/isolated/etc) it may be a huge concern. If may be less of a concern if you are dealing with other more pressing issues in your life.

Second in my opinion helping “males under 35” is worthwhile but it is no more or no less important than it is for helping anyone who is struggling. Adaptation to change is necessary for survival. In the case of “men under 35” I believe the resistance to social/cultural changes is the root of the issue. And as @fiftyfifty1 articulated, men and women have a lot more in common as humans.

I confess the heroic article kinda made me want to gag. The author stated men “get an immense sense of worth if they are being valued, and appreciated, for rescuing, protecting, building, and solving.

While the need to feel important isn’t exclusive to men, the roles that give them the most satisfaction (generally sacrificing the body for the greater good), and how they respond if they don’t have those roles (anger, despair, vengeance), is very different from females.”

The author is focused on men with dismissive regard toward women imo. I would counter women also “get an immense sense of worth if they are being valued, and appreciated, for rescuing, protecting, building, and solving. Unfortunately women have often been under-valued and under-appreciated for their contributions…that is until women began to feel a sense of agency.

Do men not realize the bodily sacrifice of bearing children? Do men not realize women have made many personal sacrifices for the greater good of the family?

Whereas the author focuses on the “anger, despair, vengeance” of men who are denied “heroic” opportunities, has he considered how women have been historically tasked with de-prioritizing themselves and its effect on them?

I wish I had more time but I’ll add one last thing. I recommend another Diary of a CEO podcast that touches on many of the issues talked about in this thread. It is titled “Paul Brunson: Women Need To Lower Their Standards! If They Have These 3 Traits, Never Let Them Go! If You Get Sick There’s A 624% Chance He’ll Leave!” from 1/29/25

As with other DOAC podcasts the title is sensationalized and the first 2 mins can be skipped.

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Before I went to church this morning I read the article and a few posts that have since disappeared. I will say that so much of what I read about males applies to all humans, including the part of getting “an immense sense of worth if they are being valued, and appreciated.” I am not male and do not know whether the part of about “protecting, rescuing, building, and solving” is a key part of feeling valued as a male.

I suspect that males feel less recognized/appreciated because people are less apt to verbalize their recognition/appreciation of others, generally speaking. Females might do that for friends of theirs and others they are close with, but there seems to be a taboo among many guys for doing the same, unless perhaps it’s related to protecting/rescuing/building/solving, i.e. traits historically associated with masculinity.

But why don’t we compliment the fathers of young kids we see babywearing while walking the family dogs and how we admire them for taking care of the needs of their dependents? Or praise the guys who bring homemade chicken noodle soup to their friends who are sick? Or thank the guys who are really amazing listeners and notice and remember seemingly minor details from previous discussions that shows how insightful they are?

I think people overlook how important the need for recognition is in people. When I was in the classroom, if the class was getting carried away in a direction I didn’t want it to go, I’d pick up a phone and call one of the parents. Not a parent of one of the people acting up, but a parent of one of the kids who was doing the right thing. And as soon as the kids saw me doing a positive phone call where I noted the specific behaviors I was complimenting, all of a sudden they were all trying to do the model behaviors because they wanted a positive phone call, too.

So I think it’s important that we tell people when they’re doing things that we admire/appreciate. It’s not just that males need the recognition; females do, too. I think that it’s particularly difficult for males, though, because they were never recognized for some of the things that women expect of men now, and if they don’t get recognition for things that they used to do or the new things that are expected of them, they don’t necessarily see the point.

I think the same thing is true for women who have done the cooking and the cleaning and the social planning and life organizing, etc. Women have done tons of work and don’t appreciate it when it’s not recognized, particularly when it’s unrecognized for years upon years.

All of this to say, don’t be restrained in complimenting people for the specific things that you admire. I really do think that if we were freeer in our admiration, that our society would be a better place.

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As a woman I have had plenty of times where I did not receive recognition for what I did both at home or in the workplace. Maybe it’s just part of being an adult and doing what needs to be done.
FWIW I know a lot of young men who are working, and doing a lot for their families ( my own SIL is one of them). And I recognize that there are some young men who have issues , but some of them simply don’t want to be adults.

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Most of “what men need” articles like the one above make me think is that men are terribly fragile. And anyone who doesn’t think that men get praise even from strangers for things that women do with their children every day hasn’t been out much. So much praise for a dude with a kid in a front pack at a park or a grocery store.

But now that women aren’t going to be allowed to be agents in the world maybe all these struggling guys will step it up.

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Well I for one respect and appreciate your different perspective. I think kindness is in short supply these days.

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I definitely understand this. But I’m much more apt to spend more time in the kitchen trying new or more complicated recipes if I’m cooking for an appreciative bunch than if it’s just taken for granted that I’m going to be providing a meal for the family (in which case I start thinking more frequently about whether someone should just pick up a pizza or burritos…why should I bother if I’m tired from working all day and nobody really appreciates my efforts…) And even if I don’t notice my motivation dragging at work, I will notice that a meaningful compliment will up my drive to try and be even better at my job. So yes, I still get my family fed and I still do my job well, but getting some recognition gives me motivation to do an even better job than I was doing before. I imagine I’m not alone in this.

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Well let’s think about the potential problems with disaffected men. Oh wait, that’s been studied. 2.5x the rate of fatal drug overdoses, 4x higher rate of suicide, much higher violence, both towards men and towards women.

Does that help answer your question?

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Actually, no.

As I said in my previous post, I agree that there is a serious problem in that demographic. In fact it was my post that was referred to in the very first post on this thread. Both of my kids (daughter and son) are under 35 and I’m aware of some tragic incidents. I am very concerned about this topic, but realize opinions vary, when it comes to ”what should be done and by whom should that something be done”.

So while reiterating stats is alright (awareness is a starting point), it does not change anything unless the “collective we” do something…hence the discussion.

When I have more time (I’m on a trip now), I’ll share some other thoughts but in the meantime here’s another statistic to consider: there are approximately three female suicide attempts per every one male suicide attempt. The difference in fatalities is called the gender paradox of suicide. I share it not to redirect this thread but to illustrate why I mentioned how high a priority it (the male, under 35 struggles) should be, since one could argue more attention should be directed to the needs of women if they’re driven to that point at a higher rate.

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Isn’t a large proportion of that difference due to who uses guns in suicide attempts?

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Yes. Women are more likely to attempt suicide, but less likely to use firearms.

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The level of dismissiveness in this thread for cited articles by male authors attempting to explain that evolution and genetics make men and women psychologically different is quite remarkable.

And the suggested response is basically get over it, grow up and behave more like responsible women:

Is it so hard to see that how praise works for boys and men (seeking status within a male peer group to impress potential future partners) might be completely different from girls and women and that evolution has a lot to do with it?

As @hebegebe pointed out, evolution

But if you try to ignore those considerations, you have problems. So how do we redirect those impulses into positive outcomes where struggling males can achieve affirmation and peer group recognition (and ultimately become caring and successful partners)? Sports is one route, but we’ve lost a lot of the organizations that used to provide that social peer networking, especially for young males (who joins the Elks or Rotary or the Freemasons nowadays, it seems that fundamentalist religions, Christian or otherwise, are one of the few male-dominated organizations left). It’s unsurprising that the search for male-focused peer groups has led young men into activities like online gaming or following unsavory characters like Andrew Tate.

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I don’t think there is all that much “evolutionary difference”. And I don’t have a lot of patience when the people whom the culture has enabled to be in control for generations are all of a sudden struggling because they have competition. But the new regime seems to be that we need to go back to catering to them. Lots of young men aren’t struggling. We need to complement them for the slightest accomplishment? We need to find ways they can feel “heroic” when they can’t put down the game controller? There are many options for men to do “manly things”. Enlistment in military and law enforcement don’t show them embracing those opportunities. And actually men are more fragile in a lot of ways biologically because of those missing genes in an Y chromosome vs an X one. Yes, young men who need help should get it. But they also should be challenged to do hard work. And anyone who thinks the world makes things easy for women is blind. It’s hard for everyone. Women are just used to it being hard.

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I believe that @Twoin18 identifies as male, and this is what he’s expressing:

@shawbridge (who, I believe, also identifies as male), made this point:

@cinnamon1212 (who, I believe, identifies as female) shared this earlier on:

I identify as female, and I wrote this:

One may not always agree with another’s perspective, but I think it’s important to allow space for those views to be shared and to sit with them and reflect upon them. I haven’t visited the Man or Bear thread lately, but my recollection is that there were men in the thread talking about actual risks vs. perceived risks and that the collective wisdom was that it was a thread where men should be more inclined to read and listen to the experiences of women rather than to explain to them why they were misguided in their views.

I do not want women’s voices on this thread silenced, but I do think that there needs to be greater attention paid to what men on this thread are saying. Whether one agrees with everything they are saying is not the point, but it is important to hear how they perceive situations and why.

I am also the OP and wrote this above (emphasis added):

For those who want to delve further into the topic of how society needs to improve with respect to women, here is the link to that thread: Women: 18-35+: Where does our society still need to make changes/improvements?

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Fair enough. If these male posters say that men have an evolutionary need to be heroes and build things, I will have to take their word on that.

I guess since I don’t happen to need anything built and don’t desire a hero (and since my own husband and own son seem to be doing fine despite neither building nor hero-ing) I don’t have anything to add. I will listen.

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Let me explain what I meant. Oftentimes, as in the Hero article, a viewpoint/problem is presented without looking at the whole picture. That is fine for the audience who identifies with the issue. But it doesn’t necessarily resonate with those who do not hold those same values.

I feel like you may have misinterpreted my disagreement with dismissiveness. When I think of “dismissive” I think of something that is unworthy of consideration. In the case of the Hero article I for one considered what it was trying to convey. I did not dismiss it without reading it and thinking about it. Yet no matter how much some might want it to be persuasive, I did not agree with the premise. I believe everyone (male and female) needs to feel appreciated and valued.

If men like to play the hero role that’s fine and I’m sure the person who is being saved is grateful, but don’t force women into the role of having to be saved. Who wants to be the damsel in distress?

I agree. People may have different perspectives and I will listen to them.

Yet in a true discussion, one should expect to be respectfully challenged, otherwise imo people are just talking at each other. So props to the @shawbridge and others because yes, a panel on masculinity should definitely include men!

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But the article actually told a story about saving a (drugged out) man who was locked in a bathroom…and the man who saved him was mostly concerned about his status amongst other men (who were the people trying to get the door open and presumably mostly the ones buying him drinks afterwards), even if the (implicit evolutionary) motivation was to impress women (and the request for help came from a woman).

I don’t think soldiers or law enforcement officers only care about saving women. They care about saving people.

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The trouble is, there is no real explanation here at all. Rather there is only a far fetched supposition based on stereotypes that, genetically, men need to be treated like they are heroes, and accordingly everyone else should abide if they know what is good for them. That’s not an explanation. It is no more scientific than the earlier article you linked which suggested that, genetically, the “idealized male strategy” includes forcible rape.

Claiming something is “genetic” doesn’t make any individual’s behavior inevitable, nor does it mean the rest of us need to bow down to the supposed genetic characteristics being claimed.

Yet you and @hebegebe seem to think that because the two of you call these stereotypes “genetic,” that the conversation ought to be over, and no other opinions are valid? I beg to differ.

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You have a point. In the story a man was rescued from the bathroom when ”a woman got all upset that her man had went into the bathroom…and she needed help and for the next twenty minutes…”

My point is that a lot of women are tired of the victim role and embrace the “saving people” motivation you mention. Kudos to the men and women who are serving in the military and as law enforcement officers!

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After nearly 600 posts, it is clear that the conversation is far from over. But dismissing genetic differences between men and women as “stereotypes” and “far fetched suppositions” which are not “scientific” doesn’t move the conversation forward. If you’d like to cite some scientific studies that claim to demonstrate men and women’s psychology is identical then please do.

Of course, individual people behave differently and no particular behavior is “inevitable”. But there’s a reason why the hottest field is economics is behavioral economics, and that’s because people in general don’t behave rationally. Finding economic policy solutions that work with instead of against people’s irrational behaviors wins Nobel Prizes because they actually have a chance of success. Likewise, finding social policy solutions that align with men’s psychological needs might have more chance of working than simply asserting that needing to be a “hero” (or, more prosaically, having opportunities to enhance your social status amongst male peers) is irrational.

So for example:

If you want them to put down the game controller (which lets young men participate in a virtual world that is all about being heroic), then yes.

Does (a significant section of society) saying “defund the police” and “stop the war” encourage or discourage young men from pursuing those opportunities? Is being a LEO or soldier more or less respected in society than a few years (or generations) ago?

I certainly don’t have good, let alone comprehensive, answers to these challenges. But many people on this thread seem to believe that men are simply being irrational and their problems would be reduced if only they behaved more like women. Unfortunately, life doesn’t work that way.

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I don’t know why people do what they do. But the US Military made it’s recruitment goals in 2023 because of all the women who signed up. I know I’m supposed to shut up on this thread because I don’t have a penis but I’m not going to. If men are discouraged when they don’t get the level of encouragement they desire they need to rethink what they value. I am not saying they should behave like women. I don’t think anyone has said that. I think that the world sucks and men need to figure out how to work out a life in what is, not complain about what is not. I think that women have done that in their way. If men are struggling they need to find their way. But doing it by dominating other people won’t work for the vast majority of men anymore.

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