I think many of the problems would disappear if video games were nonexistent.
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Ooohā¦I like this exploration into the correlation between the inability to seek help and the struggle weāre seeing particularly, but not exclusively in males under 35.
While we seek to raise independent individuals, I do believe that āno man is an islandā. We are connected in oftentimes unimaginable ways. Itās alright to need and lean on supportive people, yet like most things thereās a spectrum. Too much or too little can be detrimental to the goal. Complicating matters is the reality that the kind and amount of support that is helpful for a particular individual is not universal.
I have several thoughts:
- Talk. I believe talking about and distinguishing between wants and needs is very helpful in clarifying/examining all the external influences from peer pressure to social media.
- Listen with as little judgment as possible. When you listen you can better understand the other personās
- Observe. Actions, some of the time, are contradictory to what the individual is saying. Pointing the contradiction(s) out in a non-confrontational manner may lead to some much needed self-reflection. I believe it āstarts with the man in the mirrorāā¦which just so happens to be one of my favorite songs.
- Mentors. I believe many benefit from outside help. And yes, perhaps we should be encouraging children to both give and receive help.
In the school setting I remember two helpful instances for my kids. In middle school there was a program where the resource room was utilized for peer tutoring. At first I was skeptical. My kids were approached to give up their lunchtime to tutor in subjects they were strong inā¦I believe it was 2 or 3 days a week. Anyway they wanted to do itā¦the school had somehow made it a ācool/desirableā thing to do. It was a great experience. I think it helped my kids with empathy and deeper understanding of that middle school material. Having to explain something to someone else requires understanding/figuring out your audience and then communicating your message in an understandable way. In hindsight it was a fantastic mutually beneficial experience.
The second mentor experience was in college. The coed business frat had a mentorship arrangement whereby you were matched with an upperclassman. I remember the first time I heard of it. My daughter excitedly shared how her mentor spent time looking at her class schedule and activities and discussing various opportunities and their respective pros and cons.
This type of mentor program not only helped her as a naive entering freshman (they had to do a certain number of informal meeting a semester, documented with a selfie and often at a coffee shop), it helped them (DS and DD) as upperclassmen to reflect on what they had done well and would recommend versus what they couldāve done differently.
- Self-reflection is crucial in my opinion. It was topic in that podcast I recommended with Dr. K. For those who donāt have time to listen to the long podcast hereās a link to an outline of it.
Itās food for thought.
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I completely disagree.
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have 4 kiddos. My oldest S15 and I clash. But, of all of our kids, heās the most responsible and generous kid. Heās an actuary, follows the rules, and has always been an old soul. Iām so thankful for him! (just wish we could get along better!!!) So - not everyone is struggling.
my S20 - itās WIDE open on how he will turn out once heās adulting after college graduation!
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Of course not everyone is struggling. But more are than before,and it is a quite m recent phenomenon, and it seems to correlate with gender, so it is worth exploring
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Regarding suicide rates, they have increased in recent years, but itās worth noting that the increase just brings the rates back up to previous rates.
Suicide rate per 100,000 in ages 15-25:
1994 = 13.8
2002 = 9.9
2022 = 13.9
Did not find this broken out re male vs female but rates of completed suicide have always been higher in men (while attempts higher in females.)
The epidemiologists donāt really understand why suicide rates rise and fall. Just as with violent crime rates, there are a lot of hypotheses (video games? rap lyrics? crack cocaine? single mothers? ābroken windowā policing?) but nobody has yet been able to predict ups and downs of the rates based on these factors.
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100% agree about the mutually beneficial work of mentoring!
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Ha ha. My second kid was quite a shocker and shook up all my certainty about what a āgood parentā I am. I think your point is great --so much of child outcomes are out of our control as parents even when we have the best intentions (both the stuff about which we smugly pat ourselves on the back and also, thankfully, the mistakes we make and self-flagellate ourselves for).
What is surprising to me about this thread is the focus on explicit (encouraging and discouraging) messages from adults like parents and teachers about gender.
I think that the majority of the childhood messages that I got about gender and even more so about race and sexual orientation came not from my quite encouraging parents or teachers but from books, (teen) magazines, TV Shows, advertisements, and movies. Even though I grew up in the free to be you and me/Marlo Thomas era, the vast majority of entertainment that I consumed happily and wholeheartedly swallowed depicted pretty rigid portrayals of what girls are supposed to like and what boys are supposed to like (along with who black people were and why gay people were revolting). The exceptions portrayed in those books and shows were just there to prove the rule. Yes, this exceptional boy was sensitive, but most wernāt. Yes, this exceptional girl was an admirable tomboy but eventually around age 16, sheād take off her overalls and surprise everyone with how attractive and girly she could be. Intellectually, I heard adult messages about how girls could do anything that they wanted or about the achievement of various races, but did I really internalize and believe it in the face of wider societal messages that presented much more limited views of race, gender, and sexual orientation? I donāt think so.
Does it really matter if childās parents are having both their sons and daughters wash dishes and mow lawns if the child is also consuming a steady diet of books, movies, and toys filled with tropes and stereotypes? I do think the portrayal of male and female characters in the media has gotten better in recent years, and my children have been exposed to a wider range of character depictions, but stereotypes around gender and race are still quite prevalent in entertainment.
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Same here! Have you seen the videos done by comedian TJ Therrien? He plays the oldest, middle, and youngest kids in a family. Itās hilarious. This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDkbehNl5lE actually helped me feel better about our parenting when I saw how the dad reacted to the oldest and then the middle kid. So much like the dynamics in our family!
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In thinking about some of the gender-specific characteristics, Iāve partially developed a theory, but would love to get some insight from CC. Thus, I started a poll and thought Iād share it here with anyone whoās interested:
I was so excited to have a daughter after two sons, because I thought when she grew up we would be closer. Sheās great when weāre together, but she almost never contacts me unprompted. Middle kid (son), on the other hand, sends me messages almost daily on WhatsApp and lets me know whatās going on in his life. Not what I expected!
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My kids rarely contract me/us unless they want/need something. We all love each other but they are busy with their lives. I have one boy, one girl.
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You are correct that our consumption of media greatly affects our opinions and how we perceive the world.
Speaking for myself I have placed more focus on things over which I feel I have had some controlā¦so in this discussion I look at actions a parent and/or teacher might take. People who directly interact with kids.
When it comes to tv/movies/mass marketing/IG/TikTok and addressing tired tropes, I tend to push back by 1. trying to raise awareness/speaking up/voting and 2. modifying my own consumptionā¦whether that means changing the channel, boycotting a product or some other personal choice.
We cannot control others but we donāt have to be apathetic about issues. We can always try to be more empathetic to others.
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I think both #1 and #2 are great things to do actively when we raise our individual children! I was just belatedly trying to address the earlier conversation that seemed to be emerging about whether or not boys and girls are still pushed towards certain fields and how much todayās students are exposed to stereotypes at school/home. Several posters chimed in with their personal experience growing up in more egalitarian households or raising their own children in a non-biased manner. The implication being that if as parents (and teachers) we tout the message that children can be anything they want regardless of their sex, they will naturally gravitate towards all fields equally --and if there is an imbalance in areas like nursing vs. engineering or flute vs. drums, it is just coincidence reflecting the interests and talents of individual students.
I think positive and supportive messages from open-minded adults are great but they do not always counteract the cultural forces that influence kids even in 2023.
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I know this is going to come across as snarky, but, honestly?! Are studies really needed to confirm that men wonāt ask for mental health help/therapy when history (pre-GPS days) has taught us that they wonāt even stop to ask for directions??? Are we really surprised?
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Yes, we need to teach young people how to ask for help from a young age. Acknowledging/labeling various emotions and asking children to verbalize a request would help their development.
Iāve witnessed parents ārewardingā poor behavior in order to avoid conflict and often out of expediency. Then expecting a child to be able to self manage in similar situations just because theyāve reached a certain age.
āGetting in touch with oneās feelingsā is a phrase that at times is met with eye rolling derision. But as with most things itās the extremes that perhaps should be avoidedā¦ignoring/suppressing feelings most of the time and the alternative of wallowing in feelings without breaks.
I believe we can teach people to ask for help. It may seem counterintuitive but being able to ask for help actually assists an individual to becoming more self-reliant.
I feel fortunate we never had to take the ātough loveā path. I have ambivalent feelings about it. Iāve seen it used as an excuse to justify/rationalize abuse. Yet I do feel it depends on the individual. Coddling questionable behavior does have its own ramifications.
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Iāve been thinking about the following posts:
Iām going to address certain parts because Iām trying to understand this point of view.
- āEncouraging men to participate in traditionally female activitiesā
I can think of many ātraditional female activitiesā in which men should āparticipateā. They are actually life skills that make an individual more self-reliant, likely more confident and definitely less dependent on someone else. Personally Iām glad my DS can cook/bake, clean a bathroom, grocery shop, wash dishes, sew on a button, iron (actually he uses a steamer) and other activities. If Iām wrong in the traditional female activities I listed, Iād like to know what/which ones they are.
- āencouraging traditionally male activities to be more welcoming to womenā
This is not a bad thing imo. I actually believe it can be a very good thing. Iāll share why I feel this way.
DD has a black belt in taekwondo. It shocked DH and I when she initially told us she wanted to do taekwondo. DD was a āDisney princess girlā. But when she saw a taekwondo demonstration at our local park that was coed with a range of ages (children and adults), she was excited. In hindsight Mulan mightāve had something to do with it. Regardless, it was a pivotal experience in her developmentā¦both mentally and physically. (Yes, thereās sparring!) Boys and girls can benefit from the 5 tenets of taekwondo: courtesy, integrity, perseverance, self-control and indomitable spirit. (I particularly like the self control message.)
- āIn both cases they restrict the outlets for male risk taking and aggressionā
Some value aggression. I personally donāt. I like competition and assertiveness from a place of confidence, but often view aggression as an intimidation/bullying tactic. Thatās just me.
Iām not sure why praise and approval should be expected or needed from āelitesāā¦or anyone else for that matter. If a person wants their child to participate in football thatās on them.
However the more we learn about traumatic brain injuries (and CTE) and witness the bad consequences in young/healthy/popular athletes, the more likely these sports will be scrutinized. Looking for ways to avoid/minimize these types of injuries is important. The personal consequences should not be trivializedā¦and this comes from a big hockey and football fan. Reading about the link between repeated concussions and suicides is alarming.
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Iām no expert here and my under 35 son is not struggling.
I think there are a few areas to consider: a) success in school; b) success in work; and c) participation / success in relationships.
a) With respect to success in school, in the period Iāve been watching, girls/women have been increasingly more successful than boys/men. Some of this has been positive: we have reduced many of the limiting expectations of girls/women and other explicit/implicit discrimination. Some negative: schools have become much less forgiving of the high energy rambunctiousness that is much more common among boys; instead, we do a lot of medicating for that kind of energy.
b) With respect to job success, fewer jobs require physical strength and reduced discrimination against women combined with their greater academic success has helped women do a lot better. Deunionization, globalization, technology have contributed to a reduction in relative valuation of a number of jobs that men held disproportionately.
c) Dating and Relationships. When my kids started using online dating, I looked at it and it seemed to bring a return to our more base sociobiology but in a much worse way because technology enables potential connections among people who are not connected in any way. The data seem to suggest that women swipe right for largely the same 5% to 10% of males. Thus, many males have essentially no dates in a year. Some of the folks on this thread notwithstanding, women still tend to want to date up in height, income/status (note: I suspect that many college-educated women would not date plumber, even though they have relative decent incomes with potential for much higher incomes if they are entrepreneurial), and to a lesser extent education (there, matching is fine but lower levels of education are not OK) and age. This dating up, combined with menās weaker performance in education and job success leads to the 5% to 10% being selected by many, many women. The implications serve most women and most men badly. The over-selected men see no need to commit as women appear to be falling all over them. So, women looking for commitment are disappointed. The 90% of men who arenāt being selected find that they have no or snarky responses from women and end up with virtually no dates. But, as women age, they will also become involuntarily single as someone pointed out. Some will still have kids, but many probably will not.
To the extent that women still tend to want to date up in height, income/status, and educations, life will be tough for men and later for women.
There are quite a few studies (not sure how good they are) on the online dating phenomena. But anecdotally, ShawSon used online dating three times. Once as a just graduated senior from an elite LCAC who was starting his own company, the second as a grad/professional student at a hyper-prestigious school in a likely high-income earning career path, the third as the co-founder of a venture-backed fintech startup. He got some responses, but disappointing the first pass, more and better responses in the second, and he was absolutely inundated in the third pass. He went on Bumble and received over 500 messages from women. ShawD did not use online dating until a year ago. She is a family nurse practitioner who is the medical director of the clinic where she works. She did a little experiment at one point. She listed her job for a while as a nurse, for a while as a nurse practitioner and for a while as a medical director. The number of inquiries declined as the job became more complex/higher status. Men on average seemed more comfortable with the lesser job categories. Men are likely to date down in terms of age as well. Classic sociobiology at work, amplified because of dating apps.
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This is a good article laying out the large and increasing gap in achievement between boys and girls:
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