<p>The word out tonight is that Senator John McCain will be stomping for Swarzenneggers’ failed propositions to quiet unions, cut funding for schools and discourage people from becoming teachers. I thought he was smarter than that, he will be tied to a failed election and Arnold, who has become the punch line for too many jokes in California.</p>
<p>The Governator is actually trying to make teachers accountable. Heaven forbid they should be expected to be competent. Where else can you get lifetime guaranteed employment after just 2 years no matter what your job performance is? Very few states still offer this archaic guarantee. California is one of the worst performing states in terms of the education. Anyone with children in the public school system in California has seen incompetent teachers retain their positions because the administration’s hands are tied. Where is the incentive to perform above and beyond in our current system? Excellent teachers are rare, mediocrity is common. It is high time for some real reform. Arnold has the guts to propose some much needed changes.</p>
<p>Until California is willing to face reality the joke is really on all the residents. Keep dreaming that all is well.</p>
<p>socal,</p>
<p>Sure, there are lousy teachers, but most make an earnest effort to give their best to the students in front of them; in this respect, the vast majority prove their accountability simply by being in the classroom and teaching our children. So, who do I think should be accountable? How about a government–and a public–that lacks the will to grapple with the social and economic ills that fall at the feet of teachers every day. Blaming teachers for poor-performing schools is a little like blaming the first responders to Katrina who struggled heroically to do their work while the government stumbled in the background. And in the absence of a broader vision for school reform, Arnold’s proposition comes off as a cynical attempt to punish and silence some of his most vocal, and most effective, critics. His series of popositions in this special election reminds me of the ill-fated attempts in Congress to gut the ethics rules. But this is the way some people play: If you’re losing the game, try to change the rules.</p>
<p>Arnold is a cartoon character, with no substance. That is why he needs props from out of state to come in to bail him out. that is why he spends so much time fundraising in other states, even breaking the Law in Massachussettes, scalping Stones tickets.</p>
<p>If you read the official voter information guide you will see that the legislative analyst reports show that Connecticut and two other states have a one year probation; california and eight other states have two year probation periods and only indiana and missiouri have a five year plan. Since teaching is already considered to be too hard for most people considering the low pay and benefits…this will drive even more people away from teaching in California. There is no justification for Prop 74. Insidently if you read more than the Governors misleading press releases you would know that there is a process for removing poor teachers, most administrators are hesitant to follow the process probably because they know there is no one on line to take the job.</p>
<p>75 is just an anti union proposal that pretends to protect public employees, but employees can already choose to not join a union or to keep their money away from political expenditures.</p>
<p>76 should be called the We are too cheap to provide decent education for our kids proposal.</p>
<p>Swarzennegger is a fraud. He promised to work with the legislature and all he does is run and hide…McCain is a has been hoping to keep his name out there by tieing up to this third rate actor.</p>
<p>Join the policemen, fire fighters, nurses and teachers who urge all Californians to Vote no on prop 74, 75, and 76.</p>
<p>California education system is one of the WORST in the United States. </p>
<p>The propositions are a good idea</p>
<p>Proposition 74 requires 5 years before tenure and provides administrators the means to dismiss teachers with 2 consecutive poor annual reviews. Why should we reward someone with a lifetime job after only 2 years? Why shouldnt we expect more from our teachers? If becoming a teacher is too hard for someone, then they definitely shouldnt be teaching. Getting a degree and a credential isnt exactly rocket science. Regarding benefits and pay, the average teacher works 180 days/year with every weekend, holiday, and summer off. The benefits and pay are actually quite excellent when you consider the time worked, the benefits, and the job is guaranteed. I think it is reasonable to expect teachers to have some degree of competence. As a taxpaying parent, I believe proposition 74 is a long overdue beginning to reforming our poor education in California.</p>
<p>Proposition 75 is actually supported by about 50% of teachers at this time. Prop 75 would require unions to get permission from their members before spending members money on political uses. Right now, teachers can opt out, but the process is difficult and if someone opts out, the union keeps their money anyway for some other unspecified use. AND the teacher loses their liability insurance. Prop 75 gives individuals the power to decide how the union will spend their money. What can be bad about that? Incidentally, the California Teachers Union is almost bankrupt. They charged each member an additional $60 fee for the next 3 years and THEY HAVE ALREADY SPENT ALLTHE MONEY and are borrowing more on their Bash Arnold campaign. They will do and say anything in order to defeat prop 75 because now they cant afford not to.</p>
<p>Proposition 76 would simply require the state stay within budget. It would put an end to the unlimited spending in our state. Another lie the unions and lefties are telling us is that Arnold took away 2 billion dollars from the schools. Truth is, he originally set aside 5 billion, but due to the deficit, was only able to actually give 3 billion. So, although they didnt get the 5 billion, the schools ended up with 3 BILLION more dollars than they previously had. Yet the ads would have people believe Arnold took money away from the schools. </p>
<p>VOTE YES on 74, 75, 76, and 77!</p>
<p>I’m all for expecting more from our teachers, but we have to be willing to reward them. In the world of private enterprise–which seems to be the model for most conservative attempts at school reform–talent costs money, yet few such reformists are willing to raise teacher salaries to attract talented people to the profession. Through lack of vision or lack of will, most conservative advocates of school reform are unwilling to adhere to the logic of their positions, at least when it comes to their calls for “teacher accountability.” As a result, I don’t have much faith in their proposals.</p>
<p>Effective public school reform–including breaking the back of the powerful, self-serving teachers’ unions–would free up a great deal of money with which to remunerate those teachers who truly deserve it.</p>
<p>Exactly, Driver. Most conservatives believe in rewarding excellence with pay incentives. Spoon, something has to be done and the conservatives have a much better plan than the liberals who just want more money thrown at a bad situation.</p>
<p>I have taught in a school system without a union, no benefits, no prep pay…not many certificated teachers…Unions keep teaching alive.</p>
<p>Conservatives want to break unions so they can repeal public education, and save their tax dollars for more important things like a third house and car.</p>
<p>If 50% of the teachers wanted to reduce or eliminate political spending, it would have happened. They don’t because they know that so much of what has ruined public schools has been conservative politicians cutting the education budget. We have a minimum state contribution to education and Arny doesn’t want to spend the money on that. Instead he has focused his powers on getting tax cuts for auto dealers and eliminating a water board that was hampering the overdevelopment of wet lands…He has sold the government to the highest bidder. That is why most Californians will oppose 74, 75, and 76.</p>
<p>Who’s opinion do you trust on education, a person who has dedicated their life to the profession or the tax payer in Orange County who wants a bigger tax break?</p>
<p>Its all about cheating children because your cheap.</p>
<p>Ironically, the cost of implementing any of this will be staggering. We will have fewer qualified teachers in this state, they might go to Arizona, where Senator McCain seems happy with a shorter tenure time period.</p>
<p>It is the teachers and the children who are being cheated when the teachers unions go bankrupt spending millions upon millions on political campaigns? Why don’t the unions trust their members to make their OWN decisions on where their political dollars are going? The unions are not about the children or the teachers, they are about power.</p>
<p>How is “breaking the back” of the teacher’s union going to free up money without lowering pay or decreasing benefits, the very things that need to be raised to attract talent to the profession? This is not a rhetorical question; I’m genuinely curious. We seem to agree that excellence should be rewarded, but it must also be attracted; otherwise, at the end of the day, there won’t be much excellence to reward. Rewarding excellence won’t work if the reward is not much more than a living wage.</p>
<p>One reason teachers can’t afford to live in most cities in CA is the outrageous cost of housing which is in part due to the constraints on development due to overly restrictive environmental rules and archaic zoning regs.</p>
<p>Spoon, our teachers are currently being paid quite well and are failing our students. The starting wages for teachers just out of college is >$40,000/year. That doesnt sound like very much, but when you consider they work 180 days a year, they are making an effective rate of ~$60,000/year to start. Then add the generous medical, dental, vision, life insurance and pension plans and the job is quite comfy. Plus, there is absolutely no accountability. </p>
<p>My children have had math teachers who dont teach the subject matter, but require the students go to other students for explanations. One math teacher actually spent every day in class on the computer, checking his e-mail. Other teachers are getting paid to show movies to my children such as Shrek and Beauty and the Beast. My children have had to deal with teachers who exhibit severe mood swings toward the students, teachers who lose papers repeatedly, and teachers who dont teach the subject. These are high school teachers in a district considered to be excellent, with lots of parent involvement. I cant imagine how it is in poor performing areas. We have watched as incompetent teachers are not disciplined because the principle has no power to do anything about it. </p>
<p>Teachers who have been working for many years are making upwards of 60-80 thousand dollars a year again for the same 180 days of work, 6 hour days and every weekend, holiday, and summer off. At my childrens schools, the teachers cant get to the parking lot fast enough after school. You have got to be kidding me if you think these people are not being paid enough. If they want wage increases, then they should try working 40 hours/week and 50 weeks/year like those of us in the real world. They should be evaluated annually with incentives for achievement and penalties/dismissal for lack of performance. </p>
<p>Lack of accountability has created the current level of apathy demonstrated by many teachers. And the few excellent teachers are not getting the recognition and compensation they deserve. It just doesnt make sense that excellent teachers and mediocre teachers are being treated exactly the same. I strongly agree with Arnold. We need reform and we need to focus on quality education for our children. The propositions are a good step in the right direction.</p>
<p>I find it sad to see otherwise intelligent posters bashing teachers or telling us how easy it is. I especially marveled at the no accountability line. Heck, did socal ever hear of parents.</p>
<p>Anyone who thinks a job in an organization run by involved elected officials (called school boards), where you cannot even take a bathroom break when you want (leave a class of kids unattended?), that has afterhours commitments (grading, parent meetings etc), that leaves you open to constant criticism (do parents ever call to bring good news?), that can only offer you employment for 9 months out of the year, leaving you to fend for yourself for the summer (like the world is filled with great 3 month jobs. Ever sell encyclopedias?), if that’s your idea of a great job, then you live on a different planet.</p>
<p>It is so easy to blame teachers for problems brought on by federal (NCLB), state or local policies. It is also so easy to blame teachers for the failings of inner city schools.</p>
<p>Geesh. I’m amazed we get teachers as good as we do. After all, they DO have to put up with folks like us as part of their job.</p>
<p>At the elementary level, the teachers in our district went on strike in the middle of the Gray Davis induced California budget crisis several years ago. The state had no money, and the teachers were striking for more wages. During this time, the teacher’s union required teachers to teach to contract, which meant they were not allowed to work 1 minute more than the specified minutes in the day. The teachers informed the parents they were no longer available to help children after school and they cancelled activities such as the annual spring talent showcase and other events. Children were hurt by this disappointing behavior on the part of the teachers. The teachers and their union bosses dont seem to consider the time saved by the tens of thousands of hours of volunteer work from generous parents who copy, collate, cut, staple, measure, supervise, read aloud, and chaperone. At the elementary level, teachers are showered with gifts, luncheons, and constant praise by very appreciative parents. So, newmass, I have no idea what you are talking about.</p>
<p>“So, newmass, I have no idea what you are talking about.”</p>
<p>I figured as much.</p>
<p>socal,</p>
<p>My point is that if you want to govern schools according to market forces, then be consistent. If the current starting salary and benefit package is not high enough to attract the level of quality and talent you’d like to see, then it needs to be raised. This is what would happen in the world of private enterprise. Based on market principles, the fact that you feel teachers are generally mediocre is proof that starting salaries are too low to attract the sort of gifted, engaged people who are going to work hard regardless of tenure, the very people we all want teaching our children. Whether you feel the job is easy or not is irrelevant. </p>
<p>I absolutely believe in accountability, but not in the absence of incentives–both to reward excellent work and to attract excellent talent. Again, what I’m not hearing from Arnold and others is consistency and courage, a plan that follows through on the logic on their vision. When I hear it, I’ll be listening with open ears. How about something like the following:</p>
<ol>
<li> Dramatically raise starting salaries to attract more talented people to teaching; also, dramatically raise standards for certification.<br></li>
<li> Create an incentive system so that raises and promotions are tied to performance. (This one is admittedly tricky, since much of the best work teachers do is impossible to quantify. How does one measure inspiration, raised confidence, broadened vision? Still, I imagine some system that goes beyond test scores is possible to devise.) </li>
<li> Abolish tenure.</li>
</ol>
<p>I tend to be liberal in my politics, but I find this proposal attractive. I think it has a chance to work–at least to increase the quality of instruction. I suspect, however, that many conservatives would find such a plan unpalatable because of the cost. But you can’t have your cake and eat it too. If we want to change our assumptions about the ways schools should be run, then we need to go where these assumptions take us. Any plan that fails to do this will leave a system at odds with itself, schizophrenic in its vision, organization, and policies. So, are you on board?</p>
<p>
I couldn’t disagree more with this. It appears that market principles don’t apply in K-12 education, particularly where the largest element–government schools–are controlled by employee unions. Our public school district pays starting salaries similar to what socal describes, with median salaries of about 80k, yet 45% of the parents in our town opt to send their kids to private schools where the median pay is 45-50k. Money is not the issue. Ethos and accountability–for all concerned-- are the issues. I’d also add, spoony, that all three of your proposals–with the exception of the dramatic pay increase–are anathemas to the teachers’ unions.</p>
<p>Spoon, I think you would be surprised that we agree more than disagree on this issue. Your proposals would be ideal. However, it would be difficult to implement them all at once. If we could end up with ALL of your ideas #1, 2, and 3, we would see a huge improvement. At least the governor cares enough to make some changes in the right direction. That is more than anyone in the past has been willing to do.</p>