<p>^ LOL! :D</p>
<p>10char</p>
<p>calmom - please read my post:
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<p>People do make choices on what’s best for them. We waited for 7 years after we were married before we had D1. Reason? We wanted to make sure we were financially secure before we had kids and we could afford the kind of care we wanted for our kids. </p>
<p>calmom - I am sure your daughter is very happy where she is, or she wouldn’t be there. I really don’t know much about Washington Heights to even know if I would consider living there.</p>
<p>I think you kind of miss my point. You should have some kind of idea of what the cost of living in Manhattan. Only an extremely small number of families are going to be in a financial position to afford rent in an apartment large enough to accommodate a child plus live in care for the kid. Whatever your choice was, it was probably at a time when rents were lower and the going rate for a babysitter was less than it is now. The cost of living has gone way up at a much steeper rate than wages. At least for people looking for entry level work, wages in Manhattan are actually less than on the west coast (probably because states like California have significantly higher minimum wage levels, which probably in turn pushes everything up) For example, the minimum wage in San Francisco is $9.79/hour – whereas minimum wage in Manhattan is $7.25. So you’ve got a huge imbalance between cost of living and earnings of the vast majority of workers. </p>
<p>It’s not a matter of “waiting” until the family is more financially secure – most residents of Manhattan have no hope of ever having the kind of money that could pay for private s NY schooling or live in help. Yes, some people do move to the suburbs-- but most people aren’t in a financial position to buy a house in Scarsdale – rather, the move is to a rental in Queens or Brooklyn (and not Park Slope, which is kind of pricey these days as well)</p>
<p>No one is criticizing your choices in terms of paying for childcare. The point is simply that it is a choice that only those on the very upper end of the income scale can realistically make.</p>
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I think that’s what makes this whole discussion a bit silly. It’s like talking about somebody who is suing the Rolls Royce dealer.</p>
<p>You’re of course right calmom, zillions of New Yorkers go through the public school system. Heck, my wife did it.</p>
<p>But what I saw mostly, from the people we knew, most of whom valued education highly and had the ability and at least enough money to arrange to live elsewhere, was: if they couldn’t get their kids into one of the “good” public school options, and couldn’t or didn’t want to pay for private schools, at a certain stage in their family, especially with multiple kids near or in elementary school, most of them grudgingly fled to the suburbs. Most didn’t want to leave. But they found that preferable, from the perspective of their children’s education, to those “other options” that were available to them in the city.</p>
<p>It wasn’t about neighborhood, except to the extent that neighborhood impacted viable school choices, it was the elementary and looming middle school situation that drove them out, not the neighborhoods. Nobody says its unlivable, they just don’t think the education options they prefer for their kids are affordable there, or available to them for free.</p>
<p>If they can afford options they believe to be better (ie suburban public schools), many people take those “better” options. Those who cannot afford other options, such as my wife’s parents, stay put naturally. And I’m sure others do as well.</p>
<p>Now, with their kids in or out of college, I know at least three couples who’ve talked about moving back into the city (when they can sell their houses).</p>
<p>PS sorry this post got moved from its original order when I made a correction.</p>
<p>BTW it isn’t necessarily, or usually, Scarsdale they are moving to. Very few people can afford to live in Scarsdale. but the suburbs are not all like Scarsdale. There is a large range of affordability and neighborhoods in the suburbs. There are poor areas in the suburbs too, and everything in between. Most people we know moved to suburbs that are not very wealthy, but still thought they were getting better schools in those districts than were available for their kids in New York.</p>
<p>“Yes, some people do move to the suburbs–”</p>
<p>It’s more like tons of people who work in Manhattan move to the suburbs, if they are unable to make other satisfactory (to them) arrangements to educate their kids. Or, very commonly, unwilling to pay the freight for same.</p>
<p>But the "people you knew’ are probably on the upper end of the income scale. You are extrapolating larger generalizations based on experience with a very small cohort.</p>
<p>I understand what you mean, because the whole private school rat race was part of the culture of the “people we knew” back when my kids were small and we socialized mostly with other young lawyers. But my solution was to get to know different people. </p>
<p>I did move to the burbs, not in search of different schools, but simply because we couldn’t afford to buy a home in the cit and could scrape together the money for a down payment outside of town. I had already signed my son up for public school before the move, and was very happy because the school district had granted my request for a different neighborhood school assignment. The place we moved was actually in one of the lowest funded, most resource poor school districts in the state- though I think the public schools were better simply because there was a more stable population in the burbs. My kids pretty much were with the same kids from k-8. I think stability makes things a little easier for the teachers and gives some continuity for the kids. But again… that wasn’t in our minds when we moved. The kids were going to be in public school no matter what – the only real question was how much of a burden I was going to bear as a parent in terms of dealing with the school system. (Better school - parent can relax; worse school, parent needs to be vigilant and ready for battle). </p>
<p>Anyway, my point is simply that you shouldn’t confuse a choice that is heavily influenced by the culture of your particular cohort with the simple economic realities that dictate what others do. You talk about valuing education highly – well, those of us without a lot of cash to spread around also value education highly.</p>
<p>I actually think some of us public school parents value education more, because we don’t just value our own kid’s education, but we value the education of the other people’s kids to. I figure it helps the public schools to have a strong cohort of educated & involved parents sending their kids to public schools - it impacts the dynamic of the way the school is run, fundraising, the overall culture that the kids are exposed to, etc. When all of the education-valuers pack up and leave, then the teachers are left to deal with an increasing number of kids who do not have support at home and are not well prepared for school.</p>
<p>"Only an extremely small number of families are going to be in a financial position to afford rent in an apartment large enough to accommodate a child plus live in care for the kid. "</p>
<p>Accepting this, it is reasonable to suppose that a large proportion of those high-earning families, the only ones who can afford to be there as you say, have certain standards for educating their kids. And many of them conclude that those standards are not,or will not be, satisfied by the public school system. In which case they either have to pay, or move out.</p>
<p>"But the “people you knew’ are probably on the upper end of the income scale.”</p>
<p>That’s not solely the case. In fact, we lived in my wife’s low cost middle income housing project on the lower east side, and all of our neighbors there were of modest means. Here is what happened to the couples from there we hung out with:
- One was a kindergarten teacher at a private school, her husband wasn’t working. They moved out to a far suburb in New Jersey.
- There was a secretary and a retired husband. they moved to Florida.
- There was another couple, I think the guy worked for the city in some capacity, the wife wasn’t working. They wound up moving out of the city.</p>
<p>All of these moves happened when their kids were in elementary school.</p>
<p>But yes, other people do slug it out there. I never said otherwise.
Obviously poor people who can’t move stay. So what? Does that mean
people with the means shouldn’t seek care or education for their kids that they feel is most appropriate? I don’t see the purpose of your point.</p>
<p>HIMom, your son sounds like so much fun. We were very lucky with our very laid back pre-school. I was late on the very first day of class when my oldest was in the four year old class. The very first thing the teacher said to me was “Your son is very gifted” -first time I heard the word. The teacher used to do various Piaget tests for reading readiness. She shared the results of one - apparently the kids were asked to draw a dog - the more detailed it was the more points you got basically. My son drew something faceless. When Mrs. C (who knew perfectly well that my child was already reading and thought this hilarious) asked why there was no face. My child answered “Oh he has his back to us.” </p>
<p>Another thing from the same class late in the year, I couldn’t figure out why the heck she was spending so much time teaching all the kids to skip. Light dawned when I went to the K registration at the local public school. One of the things they checked was whether your child could skip. Thanks to Mrs. C my kid was one of the few who could. Who says teaching to the test doesn’t work? ;)</p>
<p>PS We live in one of those much more affordable than Scarsdale suburbs. 
And yes, lots of people move here when their kids are school age, and a significant number move back when the kids are out of school.</p>
<p>If we had chosen to live in the city, we certainly would have been looking at private schools or the better public options. Since dh works in the Bronx and I really liked being able to afford to work part time when the kids were small, living in the northern suburbs made more sense.</p>
<p>In 2007, median family income in Manhattan was $53.7k; in Staten Island it was $66.5; and in Nassau County it was more than $90k. Some of this masks the fact that substantially more Manhattan individuals are single.</p>
<p>But fully half make less than that.</p>
<p>
The thing you’re missing is that even the public school system isn’t a simple matter of showing up at your local school. There is an application process for pre-k, at the K level not every kid gets into the local school and there are a lot of hurdles to contend with at good schools. There is an application process for public middle schools involving recommendations, essays, auditions, etc. And the public high school process is significantly worse than anything, ANYTHING that private schools throw at people. The difference is that at the public school level, there are more peole who are less savvy and every year thousands of kids get no placements for high school at all, which necessitates another application round entirely – one which doesn’t even guarantee your child a seat in your borough. My son will be applying for high school next year. There are two separate types of testing, which connect with two separate types of prep. Plus auditions, resumes and portfolios. I can tell you that I am much more crazed with this than I ever was with my daughters’ college application process. I have a timeline, a spreadsheet and no patience AT ALL. Heaven help anyone who interferes with my completion of my to-do list because it will be ugly. The stress is much, much greater than it ever was for college. We opted out of the rat race for my D1 so she went to private school and it was all bunnies and rainbows. D2 tested in the top 1% in the state in her seventh grade year, so the world was at her feet. S is a double 4, honor roll student, who is a musician but isn’t at the top of his class because he can be lazy and messy. We have 12 choices to list for him and only one possible acceptance. You better believe we will be listing carefully and keeping an eye on the competition. In the local program we are hoping for, there were 872 applications for 92 seats last year.</p>
<p>wow when i think of all the money I saved, that mom should stay home with her daughter, teach her herself, and then invest the 19,000 and see how much she has when said daughter goes to college. BTW, my kids did just find without these so called top NY schools.</p>
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<p>May I join your club even though my undergraduate institution is perceived to be far less noble than yours…especially by some CCers. :D</p>
<p>I was not aware that educational establishments could be sued for “malpractice”, except in the limited cases of children not receiving adequate special education services, or receiving services that worsen the effects of the disability. And even in the latter instance, this (finding a lawyer and following through on everything involved in the lawsuit) can be a very difficult and expensive proposition for a family.</p>
<p>I suppose the news to me is that there is a lawyer who would take this preschool case?</p>
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<p>Hunt wins the thread.</p>
<p>And besides, why are all these Masters of the Universe types - who already make more and live a more luxurious lifestyle than 99.9% of the US population – so sweating a very specific handful of eight schools in the first place? Have they not figured out that the whole purpose of making the money they do is precisely so they DON’T have to prove anything to anybody by getting the “right” bumper sticker on their car? (Well, bumper sticker might not be the right symbol for a Manhattan-based lifestyle, but you get the idea.) It’s still so striver / wannabe to make the world revolve around those 8 schools.</p>
<p>Schmaltz
</p>
<p>LMAO!</p>
<p>A good friend is a gatekeeper at one of these golden institutions (elite private school considered to be a feeder for Ivies). She actually visits preschools to evaluate how the little ones perform in a classroom setting. This blows my mind. How can you tell who is going to be successful out of a group of four year olds?! If the kid isn’t eating glue, I think he should have the same chance as everyone else at admission. Heck, I’d even admit the kid who eats glue. I am thinking about people like Richard Branson. I bet he ate glue.</p>
<p>In any case, my impression is that the ones who do the best in the game have the best social and emotional skills. Experience in a multi-age setting helps with that. You have a bunch of smart, successful parents producing offspring. It is highly likely that any of these little ones can reach the sky if they have good health and motivation (that is true of all children, but this subgroup also has the cash to pay for all the bells and whistles). </p>
<p>What ends up distinguishing little ones in the process is behavior and personality. This NYC preschool sounds like it is doing exactly what it should be doing to properly prep kids for the admissions process.</p>
<p>The teacher I mentioned in #147 was also one of those people. The prospects would come into her classroom and participate/ play, whatever they did there. Maybe with just each other, I don’t recall. She was one of the teachers who guided their activities and evaluated them.</p>
<p>She said she picked the ones who were smartest and seemed like they played well with the other kids [and the teacher too I would imagine]. She said they could tell, or at least make reasonable educated guesses.</p>
<p>“…sweating a very specific handful of eight schools…”</p>
<p>Again… the sensationalist article headline said this, but such statement from the parent was not provided. I would guess she never said that.</p>
<p>Answering my own Q, pre-K is not mandatory, but free universal pre-k is available to residents of the city. There’s an application process there as well.</p>
<p>You know, back in the day when my son was born and going to Mommy and Me, there was a philosophy/program called the Better Baby Institute. For the uninitiated, this was an expensive flash card system where the parents would flash letters/pictures of presidents/colors/shapes and after a time (9 months or so) basic math principles.</p>
<p>One mother in our group felt it necessary to pull her son out of the group because we weren’t part of the Institute. Interaction with our kids would, according to the Institute and the Mommy, hinder her son’s progress. He had, after all, pointed to his father’s sock (Dior) and said, “DDDDD.”</p>
<p>All these years later, the remaining children in the group, went to nursery schools (some chic some not so chic), college (ranging from ASU to Cal to Penn) and all of them are functioning just fine. I don’t know what happened to that little boy. He’s probably fine.</p>
<p>…but his mom certainly complained that using the flash cards constantly ruined her manicure.</p>
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<p>Olymom, I love this. </p>
<p>Looking at the website for D1’s former preschool, I see that they now charge $850 a month for children enrolled for five half-days. We live in SoCal, and I thought costs would be somewhat similar, but wow, it’s a factor of two more expensive in Manhattan. </p>
<p>I do wonder about the rest of the story in this particular case. Surely the mother asked the school to put her child with older children? There are reviews and forums full of parents comparing different preschools; between that and touring, it’s surprising to hear that there was such a mismatch between the parent’s expectations and the school program. When we looked at preschools for D1 and then D2 we had recommendations from friends who wanted their children in a more academic-type setting. We wanted something developmental, with lots of playtime and mud. It was straightforward enough to figure out the right fit for our kids and our family.</p>