Massacre in Paris - a dozen newspeople shot

@‌ njsue-
"When journalists in a Western democracy are self-censoring because they afraid they might be murdered, we have a big problem.

Cobrat, please don’t lecture us all about the history of European colonialism and antisemitism. We know all about it. You sound like an earnest high school history teacher with a bunch of 9th-graders. Give the CC readership some credit, please.

BTW I am opposed to hate speech laws, campus speech codes, Holocaust denial legislation, symbol banning, and all that."

I agree totally, you hit the nail on the head (as did Douthat), that there is absolutely a)no justification for what these cretins did and b)that if you are to advance civilization, if you are to have a liberal society in the true sense of the word, no speech is beyond being supportable, period, and this kind especially, for otherwise you put the power into the hands of the offended, and you end up with a society where either people say nothing, for fear of offending someone, or people go out of their way to antagonize each other, to try and rile things up, and neither is healthy.

There is a great line in the musical 1776 where someone is commenting on Jefferson’s draft of the Declaration of Independence, and saying they should remove a phrase because it 'would offend their British brothers and sisters", and Adams explodes, and says “we have been picking this apart, removing things we are afraid might offend someone; of course we will offend someone, this is a revolution, D**it!” *lol/.

@‌ cobrat -
I am well aware of the religious bigotry that led to the holocaust and the anti semitism that still permeates the west, I am well aware the religious leaders in the US helped sink any idea of the US taking in any number of Jewish refugees, between the US Catholic Church and the evangelical Christians, politically it was impossible to even think of such a thing (and it might have saved the lives of millions of Jews).

I am also aware of the KKK, and I am also aware that politically the government basically did nothing about either of them, in part because of the political power they held (HL mencken called that particular branch of the Democratic party, based in the south and the farm belt, “The KKK Branch of the Democratic Party”…). I am not saying that western civ has always been this font of total enlightenment, nor that western civ doesn’t have it stains of religious intolerance, much of the history of the middle ages into fairly recent times was full of it.

However, what you leave out is the epic battles to try and erase these things and more importantly, that in the west the mechanisms are there to change it. The biggest was the separation between church and state, that broke the back of religions total control of things. It took centuries, part of it happened because secular rulers were tired of the Catholic Church’s hegonomy (and taxes), part of it was the enlightenment and the idea that religion and God are not the basis of political power. It isn’t perfect, religion had far too much power in the US for far too many years, and to this day the GOP’s powerbase is reliant on fundamentalist Christians who aren’t all that much different than the radical muslims we are talking about, but the difference is that because of the rule of law that separates religion out, there are mechanisms, legal mechanisms, to stop the religious bigots from enforcing their will on others.

France has a long history of anti semitism, but they also have a long history of those fighting the repression of the church and the government. When the Drefyus affair happened, the country was split in two, the intellectuals and the socialists and others, who otherwise would find Dreyfus an unattractive person (Barbara Tuchman described him as the type of person that if he could do it, would probably have prosecuted himself), and while it fanned vicious anti semitism (in part fanned by the French Catholic Church), it also fanned literally fighting in the streets and such by those who recognized it for what it was.

And my whole point about the people who perpetuated this is that their motivation is not isolated from the beliefs of mainstream muslims in many cases. Islam is unique, it is a very socially and politically entangled belief system (some of which, quite honestly, is a heck of a lot more advanced than Christianity; the social justice aspects of Islam make Christ’s teachings pale, and put it this way, in Islam you couldn’t have someone like Joel Osteen preaching that the rich are blessed and Jesus wants you to be a billionaire…). The problem is that among probably the majority of muslims in muslim majority areas, they don’t see Islam as a faith separate from government, they see it as a one stop system to live and that includes the law, and that is the problem. The west, even with the less than stellar things, created a legal system and a government, whether by a constitution as in the US or by evolution, as in much of the rest of europe, that was above the religion, and as a result it created a mechanism to try and right the wrongs that religion can create. It is kind of ironic, a Catholic monk wrote a treatise in the 1950s that said that the greatest thing that happened to the Catholic church was the separation of Church and State in the US constitution, that it allowed Catholics, a despised minority, to flourish here…and he was silenced by the Church, threatened with excommunication, because the Vatican of the time still believed that separation of church and state was a threat to religion (they changed their stance at the time of Vatican II)…

My point being that even if they condemn the violence, the fundamental point that is not present in the Islamic world is that religion is not above being lampooned, ridiculed, etc, and when governments are established in Muslim majority countries, they tangle the religion with the government, and there is no mechanism to separate it. When the Muslim brotherhood took over Egypt, one of the first things they wrote into the new constitution was making Blasphemy or anti islamic statements a major crime, and the same is true in a lot of other Muslim countries. Is it their right to do this? Sure, but the fundamental point is that among many Muslims that while they might denounce those who committed violence in this case, they also fundamentally are sympathetic to why they did it, and that is the problem. If you say something against my faith is offensive, it must be punished, it doesn’t matter whether it is the law or someone committing violence, the mindset is the same, and that is the problem. Among other things,that Blasphemy doesn’t just apply to non Muslims, it applies to fellow Muslims as well who disagree, so if you are a shiite in Egypt or Tunisia, you are up the creek…and given that in many of these countries what is blasphemy is often decided by fudnamentalist clerics, you in effect have the radicals deciding things there, too.

For the record, I also am not saying that Muslim immigrants are a threat, that they want to impose Sharia on others and so forth, that is just as ridiculous. I have heard interviews with Muslims in France, and while they were not happy with what the paper put out, and would speak out against it, most interviewed also said that the paper had the right to publish such things. Many of the muslims who immigrate, especially to the US, are doing so for economic reasons, but also because of religious persecution from other muslims from where they live. I have friends who are Sufi, and they face discrimination from both Shia and Sunni Muslims in their home countries, and Sunnis and Shias hate each other. They came here to get away from that, why would they want to impose the same crap here?

What I am saying is that the liberal “this is because Muslims are second class citizens”, while having grains of truth, is also a major simplification of a complicated issue with a complicated religion.

Put it this way, when I see fatwas issued against the people in ISIL, when I see prices put on the heads, not of author’s who write something considered blasphemous, but against those who publicly we are told are not Muslim, not acting in the way Islam teaches, when instead of hearing “of course we are against this, this isn’t Islam” and I see action, then I’ll feel differently. Several years ago, a cartoon was published in a Danish newspaper that infuriated Muslims around the world, and millions turned out to protest and were so incensed, rioted and many ended up dying; where is the same passion against people like the ones who did this, Al Qaeda, ISIL and the like, given that these “non Muslims” are hurting the faith a heck of a lot more than a cartoon or a book.

“The freedom to print silly cartoons without being shot dead.”

@cobrat,I agree. In this I am not very “nuanced”. Then again, the cold blooded murder of cartoonists and police personnel is not all that nuanced either. I am sick to death with “religious sensibilities” that drive “believers” to murder. If I want to read Charlie Hebdo, go to a Robert Maplethorpe exhibit, or walk through my community with my head uncovered, swilling wine and eating pork on a stick—then that is my business.
That you would say that I am “attempting to suppress the right of those who disagree from exercising their free speech rights.” is ludicrous. In fact, I am just disagreeing with @EMM1 .

“we should not be supporting or defending the cartoons either”

I am neither supporting or defending the cartoons itself. I am defending the notion that when there are differences of opinion, people on either side should be able to print whatever they want without fear of being shot.

Look, let’s take the Westboro Baptist Church - the most reprehensible group of people one can imagine in the US. I’m ALL about limiting their ability to march within x feet of grieving families and so on and so forth. But no matter how much I might personally wouldn’t shed a tear if they all died tomorrow, I’m not advocating that dissent with their point of view should come up in the form of going up and shooting them. That’s uncivilized. Their point of view can be attacked, maligned, made fun up, we can have counter-protests, we can ignore them, we can laugh at them on Facebook, we can do all kinds of things to show them that they have no place in a civilized society. But we can’t go kill them (unless they are doing something violent). And we can’t tell our government to go kill them, either.

@‌ lergnom-
The article is correct, the Q’ran doesn’t have the stuff about blasphemy and the like, that is the teaching of a long line of Imans and such, that in turn if people like Karen Armstrong are correct, came from the leaders. Much like the misogyny contained in Islam in many places, it is rooted in Bedouin tribal culture rather than directly from the faith. The image of Mohammad is interesting, that is not in the Q’ran, for Mohammad created the Q’Ran and he never mentioned himself, that came out of his followers (roughly equivalent to Paul’s place in Christianity), and it likely came from the admonition in the Hebrew Scripture about graven images (remember, the Muslims don’t just use the Q’ran, the NT and the Hebew scripture are also holy to them). Like the crap fundamentalist Christians throw around, much of what we are talking about is cultural and church teaching, rather than scriptural, not unlike for example the idea that birth control is a sin is Catholic teaching, there is zip in the bible about it.

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“What I object to is a) lionizing the people at Charlie Hedbo and b) showing disrespect to Muslims generally by reprinting and widely disseminating widely a bunch of cartoons that show contempt for their beliefs”

Too bad. There are no “beliefs” that are so sacred that someone can’t make fun of them. I’m even allowed to say (for example) “it’s really stupid that Jews can’t eat pork!” or “it’s really stupid that Catholics believe this piece of wafer is the body of Christ!” Now, there may be consequences if I say those things – I’m not going to be welcome in certain communities, I may have social wrath poured upon me for saying these things, my employer may be mad and fire me if I express that publicly and offend my clients, those may be really stupid things for me to say, I may lose all my friends.

That doesn’t mean that other people have the “right” to never, ever encounter something that shows contempt for their beliefs. There is no such right to arrange the world to your personal taste / liking.

That’s where college campuses have gone too far amuck, IMO – when they protest otherwise-appropriate and distinguished, knowledgeable speakers from speaking at commencement because OMG-I-might-hear-something-I-don’t-like. Well, get over it.

“The reasonable Muslims need to make THEIR voices heard that members of their faith should not be behaving as if this is the 8th century.”

The “unreasonable,” extremist Muslims don’t particularly GAS what the reasonable, moderate Muslims have to say, though. Look at the ultra-Orthodox Jews who aren’t exactly pariahs of tolerance either. They aren’t going to be swayed by “reasonable” Jewish brethren saying - hey, you can’t do these things. They don’t care.

I agree with this entirely. I think it’s the case, though, that for some people–and not just terrorist killers–Charlie Hebdo is not so different from the Westboro Baptist Church. It published some offensive stuff. So it’s not surprising, or even wrong (in my opinion) that some people will criticize the magazine even while defending its right to publish whatever it likes.

Right - and that’s perfectly OK.

I don’t perceive the “Je Suis Charlie” meme as saying “I agree with everything that Charlie Hebdo ever publishes, and all of their cartoons are side-splittingly hilarious and I love every word of them.” I perceive “Je Suis Charlie” as meaning “I stand for the right of people to produce cartoons / works without fear of violence even when - or even though - I may personally disagree with them or find them offensive.”

Maybe it’s insightful to think about how the Mormon community reacted to the Book of Mormon production, which certainly could be taken as offensive to Mormons. They took out ads in the Book of Mormon playbills saying in essence, you had your laugh, now come learn about us! Very well played, IMO.

No-one is really defending the cartoons they are defending the freedom of the press. Content is irrelevant.

Cobrat, you are being incredibly pedantic and condescending. Do you actually believe anyone reading this thread doesn’t understand that the concept of free speech is not absolute, that freedom of speech doesn’t mean freedom from unpleasant consequences in terms of one’s job, one’s social standing, or even in legal terms such as libel, slander, and defamation? Really, get over yourself. You are not the only educated individual posting here.

Just a minor point here, but Charlie Hebdo is the magazine, not one of the persons involved with the magazine, nor one of the individuals murdered there.

@‌ cobra-
And I denounce the French and Germans for the idea of regulating hate speech, it is both not effective, and also doesn’t fix what they claim to be fixing. Among other things, it attempts to put underground what should be public, and when something goes public it can be argued, debated, ridiculed, made fun of along with the person who wrote it. When you bury it, you get deep rooted hate, you get a festering boil no one talks about. The anti semitism that led to the horrors of the holocaust in part happened because that anti semitism was officially sponsored and fired up, both the Church and governments were behind much of what was done (and if you want a modern example, read about what it is like in Russia right now, where the Russian Orthodox church, one of the most anti semitic churches still out there, combined with the Russian government have spurred on anti semitism to levels that are sickening, it isn’t just gays). If the right of free speech existed, there would have been a lot more protest, but thanks to the grip of the church (and btw, it wasn’t just the Catholic church, the protestant churches after the reformation was as bad if not worse), anti semitism was allowed to flower and grow.

And anyone with half a brain, other than the right wing nitwits who shout “freedom of speech” every time they get pounded on for saying something stupid, only applies to the government. In France and Germany, though, we are talking the government can and does censor newspapers and books and speech;you can be arrested for writing a book that denies the holocaust, you can be arrested for making a speech that some bureaucrat decides is hate speech.

Freedom of speech in the US is like any right, it has burdens upon it, and those burdens require that if speech is to be suppressed, there has to be clear harm. You can give a speech saying White Castle hamburgers are Devil’s food, say they are evil and bad, made to kill us, and the government can’t arrest you, even if White Castle devotee got their nose bent out of joint; on the other hand, if I made a speech saying White Castle Hamburgers were the Devil’s food, and that therefore it is everyone’s duty to go and firebomb a restaurant, if I gave a speech in front of a crowd that then ran to the local white castle and burned it to the ground, I could be charged with incitement to riot. If I yell fire in a movie theater, it can cause a panic where people are hurt. If I publish something in the paper that is a national secret, it could cost people’s lives and so forth…

The beauty of freedom of speech is that it allows unfettered speech on both sides, so if someone says something stupid, bigoted, mean, offensive, they can be jumped on and fought back with free speech, which includes things like boycotts and protests and blogs and all kinds of things. More importantly, if someone says something outrageous that the current government supports (for example, if some idiot bible thumping preacher says that gays and lesbians should be put in concentration camps), the government cannot clamp down on the voice calling this person what he is, a piece of crap. If we didn’t have that right of freedom of speech, same sex couples would have no chance to marry in this country, because it is likely that conservative forces would have used the instrument of government suppression to not allow advocacy.

My biggest criticism of Islam is that in most Muslim countries, they don’t have the separation of church and state, they have made Islam into the basis for government, and I decry that no matter where it is, I am equally critical of a country like Poland that declares itself to be a democracy, yet where newspapers can be censored for writing pro gay or pro abortion op eds or for writing articles critical of the Church’s handling of the child abuse scandals (and at one time a law was proposed, I don’t know if it passed, that would make it a crime to publicize incidents of priests abusing children or of Bishops and such covering these up, all to ‘protect the church’) or any country where religion is the basis for law. My beef isn’t that Muslims are monolithic, or that they are all responsible for the violence of terrorists, they aren’t, what I am saying is that in the Islamic world in Islamic majority states Islam protected under the law and its teachings allowed to be the law. The irony of that is of course that the worst victims of that are fellow muslims, ask a sunni who lives in Iraq or a Shia who lives in Saudi Arabia or a Sufi in many countries what it is like, often the worst kind of violence is between Muslims who feel their version of Islam is the only real one…

CNN is reporting that the two brothers suspected of participating in the massacre are dead.

Earlier there were reports that they wanted to be killed. Suicide by cop basically was their plan in the end.

^^^^Not at all surprising. They most likely just wanted to draw out the ordeal, with all the media attention, etc., knowing full well that they would become martyrs at the end of it. Did they purposely leave their identification in one of the cars?

@‌ pizzagirl-

Orthodox Jews are not particularly tolerant, but then again, because they also don’t believe that their faith is the universal one (Judaism never tried to be a universal faith), they also tend to keep within themselves and worry only what goes on within their group. And when Orthodox Jews have tried to push their beliefs on others (I recall when NYC was passing its first gay rights laws, the orthodox community tried using its not insignificant muscle to not have it passed) the wider Jewish community has often come down on them, hard, for trying to force their beliefs on others. There also are ultra orthodox Jews who are just as dangerous in some ways as radical Islam is, in Israel there are ultra nationalists among the ultra orthodox, one of whom killed Itzak Rabin, and who are behind in many cases the expansion of settlements in the west bank and so forth…

I don’t think ever Muslim has the duty to denounce terrorism or have to defend their faith, but I think it is everyone’s duty as a human being to denounce those and do everything they can to stop those using whatever ideology to hurt others, or worse, force their beliefs on others. Put it this way, most of the Muslims I am friends with or work with abhor not only terrorism, but the kind of religious stupidity you see in places like Iran and Saudi Arabia, among other things, they realize that not only are those countries unfortunately the face of Islam, but that they are exporting their crap elsewhere, and that in other places it is hurting Muslims who simply want to live their lives in peace, and they fear the radicals as much as anyone on here probably does. That said, I spend a lot of time and effort fighting the Christian right in this country, I work actively against many GOP candidates because of them, I have written op ed’s denouncing the crap that evangelicals and others put out there on social issues, because unfortunately though that kind of mentality is of a minority in this country, politicians still believe that the Catholic Bishops represent all Catholics, or fundamentalist Christians are so politically strong that they need to kowtow to them, and as both an avowed social liberal and as someone who at the least is culturally Christian, I don’t want the faith being used like that…And a direct parallel to what bothers me about what I see of various Muslim populations is what I see with more than a few liberal Christian leaders, when I mention my feelings about Christian evangelicals, they tell me that I should understand they are ignorant, that their faith is all they have, etc, and I shouldn’t be so critical…and what I see tends to be while many Muslims are rightfully denouncing violence and terrorism, they are kind of also saying “but you have to understand why they are doing this, that they believe the faith is threatened, etc”…and what they are missing, as the liberal pastors do, is that that kind of belief is the problem, that whether it is an evangelical Christian who believes the law should reflect their beliefs, or Muslims having the belief that anyone publishing an image of Mohammed, of any kind, should be illegal, that belief is what needs to be challenged, and i don’t see it. When I see laws against Blasphemy pulled from the laws of Muslim majority societies, when I see prices put on the heads of for example, the people who run Isil, when there are official fatwas condemning violence and saying anyone doing that, or misusing the term Jihad, are condmenned, then I’ll believe it, but I don’t see that.

If true, hope the brothers love their 48 raisins…

I could start today and end sometime next week listing comments by Muslim politicians, preachers and public figures that call Judaism things that can’t be repeated here. I’m not talking about Israel, but about Judaism. I could put together a shorter list about Christianity, but - and this is huge - I could make an enormous list, a truly enormous list of Muslim persecutions of Christians, ranging from forced conversions to burning people to death because of an allegation something was said about Muhammed to being disemboweled for wearing a crucifix in public to absurdities like churches burnt (sometimes with children inside) because Muslims could hear the Christians singing.

My point isn’t about Islam or individual Muslims but about tolerance and the inability of many Muslims to be tolerant. That is a problem within the history of Islam, but it’s impossible to tell whether that’s inherent in the religion or in the backwards cultures in which Islam has largely been rooted. I mean, for example, that when people from “tribal” areas of Pakistan come to Britain and engage in organized rape of young British girls, that’s the culture even though the men are all Muslim.

Here’s a taste and I’m going to quote a liberal-minded Kurdish Iraqi Mehdi Majid 'Abdallah from an article in a liberal Arab internet site. Edited for length. He’s discussing the extremely common insult that Jews are descendants of apes and pigs:

"The Arab Muslims rely on a tale of dubious credibility from their tradition, purporting that some Israelites rebelled against God and He transformed them into apes and pigs for three days and then exterminated them, without these creatures ever producing any offspring. The Arabs claim that Allah never acts without consideration. I burrowed deeply but could not find any consideration that could motivate Allah to transform the Jews [into apes and pigs] and then exterminate them. Why didn’t He exterminate them immediately, without [first] degrading them and insulting their dignity? [Even if] we assume that there is substance to the story, it applies to [only] some of the Jews and it is connected to a specific incident and time. So why do we apply it to all Jews, at all times?

“Furthermore, why is it only the Jews who were transformed into beasts? Is it reasonable that Allah transformed his creatures into beasts just because they rebelled against him? If so, he should have transformed all people into beasts, because they have sinned and continue to commit terrible crimes that are a hundred times [worse] than what the Jews did. According to the false story in Islamic tradition, the Jews were turned into beasts because they fished on the Sabbath, and this is a small sin in comparison to sins such as sodomy, adultery, beheading people like sheep, taking women captive and selling them on the slave market, [and] raping minors…”

Me again. The other main insult is that Jews kill children for their blood. I could list example after example. My point again is that Muslims do this all the time and expect tolerance from Jews, Christians, Buddhists, etc. In that spirit, I’m tempted to propose a trade, that Westerners not portray Muhammed but, to quote the Kurdish writer above, refer instead to Islam as follows: “People who draw inferences from the past to the present and future, and therefore describe the Jews as the descendants of apes and pigs, should call themselves ‘the descendants of homosexuals’ and ‘the descendants of red flag women’.” The reference is to prostitutes showing they were open for business. So in exchange for being a descendant of an ape and a pig, they can be the descendants of whores and homosexuals. And they should tolerate being called that at least as long as they call other people such thing.