Not sure if this is the path S will follow, but he is considering it so I thought I would ask a few questions.
I know in some areas (investment banking, consulting, law school professors) prestige is hugely important. I also know that in some areas (engineering and medicine) that prestige isn’t particularly important.
So I guess 3 part question:
Does undergrad prestige matter for getting into a good PhD program? Will Brown or Williams look better than a flagship U? How about a directional U? (Cal Tech and MIT are not options for S)
Does reputation of a PhD program make a difference in terms of getting academic jobs?
How difficult is it to get a tenure track position in math? My anecdotal experience is that humanities PhD's struggle to find tenure track positions and that those in sciences have a much easier time. However, that's limited to the small group of people I know who tried to go that route. None of whom are mathematicians.
I am guessing S will be more interested in pure math rather than applied math. He loves geometry and game theory type puzzles. He is good at algebra and pre-calc, but would rather solve a problem by figuring out the logical answer rather than just by running through a set of rules to get an answer. He got an A+ in Algebra II, but found it pretty boring. I am not a math guy, but I’m thinking that means that he is more likely to enjoy pure math rather than applied math. He’s actually a very good teacher, and I think would enjoy that part of the profession.
Not much. Lots of good undergrads from state schools get into top grad schools.
Yes, but probably only the first one. I believe it is most important to have a good thesis advisor, caring and known in his field.
Very. Lots of people are stuck in the adjunct or temp teaching positions (heavy teaching load, little money) or leave for the industry.
I have a PhD in math but left for the industry, and my husband is a math professor at a state flagship. I would say if your son is not sure he wants to do pure math research, he shouldn’t plan on going this way. There are plenty of opportunities for math majors in industry, science research, data science, you name it. And of course K-12 teaching if he likes it. But if research is what he really enjoys, it may be a very rewarding experience. He doesn’t have to decide now, he can take several applied and pure math classes and see what he likes. Algebra doesn’t really give you a good taste of what math is.
Some previous threads have indicated that math departments do have preferences regarding PhD applicants’ undergraduate schools with respect to how well the math departments at the undergraduate schools prepare students for PhD study. However, such preferences are likely to vary across different math departments, they are not published, and they are specific to the undergraduate schools’ math departments, so they may not align with the undergraduate schools’ general prestige.
If this is the case, then a high school student choosing among colleges for undergraduate math study with a goal of graduate math study may be choosing blindly in this respect.
Some colleges have post-graduation surveys by major. Some of them do show that, for math majors, how many go on to math PhD programs, and at which schools. But not enough college make this information available. You may have to ask the career centers and math departments of colleges of interest if they are willing to tell you how many of the math graduates go on to math PhD programs, and at which schools.
Son might also look into other math-related PhDs that will pay a lot more than math. Math PhDs oddly don’t make as much as you think they would when you look at faculty salaries. Econ, for example, can be very mathy depending which program you choose and can pays a lot more. Just putting that out there since you seem curious about how the PhD market works.
Academia is “prestige” oriented, but at the bachelor’s level it’s kind of subtle. The undergrads from “no name” schools are getting letters of recommendations from professors with PhD’s from “name” schools, and those connections help them get into the “name” graduate programs.
Yes. I was given a rule of thumb by a prof 20 years ago that I have seen to be true with my friends and colleagues: you will only be considered for employment by schools at or below the reputation of your grad school, either the dept. or the school itself.
Remember also that getting academic jobs is very competitive (although more so in other subjects where there is little non-academic demand for those with PhDs). Over the course of a career, each faculty member at a research university supervises numerous PhD students to completion of their PhDs. Since that is far more than the number needed to replace a faculty member who retires, most PhD graduates need to find academic jobs elsewhere (e.g. low-research universities, LACs, community colleges, high schools; or jobs as adjuncts) or jobs in industry (quantitative finance, data science, etc. for math PhDs).
I think you may be getting ahead of yourself a little here if he is still in high school. I would let his interests and talents guide him in choices once he is on campus at a college he wants to attend, without prematurely planning a PhD or career track. I sincerely believe that thinking ahead too much can actually get in the way of opportunities. He certainly should not choose a college just to increase chances for a PhD he might not even want to do.
That said, I will mention that computer science is heavily math-oriented and I wonder if he likes to program. That might be an area that would interest him in college and it is not too early to at least think about that. But it is fine to enter college without an intended major or career interest.
ps I know students currently IN PhD programs who are STILL deciding about a career in academia, and they are 6 or 7 years ahead of your son in terms of level of education and age.
Lots of good information, thank you. He isn’t planning out his Ph.D track yet, it’s just one of many areas he is exploring. And I don’t know much about it, which is why I’m coming here for some better information. I would guess he’s a year or two into college before he really decides what he wants to study. I know I didn’t know what I wanted to be when I grew up until I was 30.
A couple follow-up questions:
Besides teach, what does one do with a math Ph.D? Is it the same things as someone with an undergrad degree, or does it open up more doors to better and higher-paying jobs?
What are the more in demand and higher paying “mathy” PhD’s? He’s interested in a lot of things, and honestly right now doesn’t know enough to know whether he’d rather study Physics or math or economics or something else. If ends up being interested in multiple areas, which direction leads to more money and better job prospects?
Again, he isn’t trying to map out his future completely at this point. I’m just trying to help him gather some information so he at least knows what he wants to explore down the road.
Sounds like your son is in a good place. I also didn’t decide what I wanted to do until I was about to graduate from college! So it’s still early days for him.
There are many options for employment with a math PhD. I did a PhD in pure math. Most of my graduating cohort in pure math are now in academic positions at RU’s or LAC’s, but many are not. One of my friends is an executive at an investment bank, another works at Google, a few are at NSA, and one is a biostatistician at a medical school. I also know a few pure math PhDs who became actuaries. The reality is that the academic market for pure math PhDs (somewhat less so for applied) is so competitive that you must keep your options open, but most of the people I know who work in industry and government did so because that’s what they prefer. Many companies are wise to this, and now offer work environments similar to academia (e.g. flexible hours, a touch of intellectual freedom), but higher salaries.
I think one could work their way into most of these areas with only a Bachelors or Masters degree, so the PhD isn’t necessary. That said, if you’re really interested in math (I mean, like really interested), then I can’t think of a better way to spend around 5 years after college (i.e. do what you love all the time and get paid enough to keep the lights on).
Others are right that the job markets for PhDs in other areas are better. Having hired statisticians, I can attest to the fact that prospects are much better for a Stat PhD than for either pure or applied math. They are also right that salaries for mathematicians are higher in industry than in academia. I make pretty good money and the benefits are great, but could probably make around 50% more in industry. Academics make tradeoffs for the lifestyle, and intellectual freedom.
https://gecd.mit.edu/resources/survey-data has MIT’s post-graduation surveys, including of PhD graduates. It does list some information by major, although MIT may not necessarily be representative of all PhD programs. But for math in 2015:
19 graduates, 13 to postdoc or further training, 6 to employment.
Listed employers are universities, research institutes, and finance.
$60,909 average pay for 11 going to postdocs.
$204,000 average pay for 5 going to other employment.
No, those stats sound about right, with the caveat that “postdoc or further training” positions aren’t the same as tenure track jobs, and folks in quantitative finance are probably over-represented in this sample among the many possibilities for “other employment.”
One more upside for industry I forgot to mention is the ability to choose where you live. In academics, you go where the jobs are, and have to be happy with wherever that takes you. That’s a deal-breaker for many people.
Many variables. Look at the rankings for math grad schools. There are several of the top tier flagships that rank in the top 10 and 20. Son was an Honors math major and overreached for grad schools- then chose to finish computer science second major and intellectually satisfied so far. A friend went to a “lesser” program and was pleasantly surprised. About 100 math grads per year at son’s school. For honors son did some grad courses.
Anecdote- friend’s relative did U Chicago, MIT and a European fellowship in recent years and still had trouble finding an academic job. No guarantees. Plus one may end up at a so-so college/U for a job. Dreams of being a math professor may be refined with knowledge gained in college.
Math grad school application process brutal. Most will of course have an 800 on the GRE then take the math GRE with a scale of 900. Son was only around the 75th percentile there. Despite being globally gifted and doing well there were some even more stellar math students. So many brilliant students from all over the world want to come to the US for math grad school. There is a grad school forum with a specific thread for math (don’t recall details).
Again, check the US News & WR rankings. Some flagships outperform elite private schools. Look at the top twenty schools for ideas.
Your son will refine his goals once he is in college. He needs to choose a school that fits him academically and otherwise. He should look at course offerings and requirements for a math major. There is an advantage to having many peers around you into math. Having opportunities to attend club meetings (with a free pizza incentive) can be useful. Being one of just several math majors will not give the same experience. Honors classes can be excellent. Students do get to know professors in their major at large U’s and if they are stellar will get those recommendations from people known by other institutions.
We parents have adjusted to our son’s not going for a doctorate. His math was an excellent background for computer software. There was a lengthy article about this a few years ago. Mathematicians learn how to think in different ways.
Finally, I would look at where Brown, Williams and other top tier private schools fall in the math grad school rankings before thinking they are a better choice than some flagships.
A good question to bring up. However, engineering and the pure sciences/math are not the same thing and one can love one but dislike the other. Likewise computer science and math are two distinct majors. There can be overlap in courses taken and some courses may be crosslisted but they are distinct majors. Same thing with Statistics (and why it should have its own department) as well.
I had always thought that engineering would be a good choice for him. However, he took an engineering class in high school and didn’t like it. I’m not sure how much was his teacher and how much was the material. Regardless, he hasn’t really shown any interest in engineering since.
My guess is that he would enjoy and be good at pure math more so than some of the related areas. However, I think his first year or 2 of college will be some experimenting with different classes to see what he wants to do. And he will also do some looking at job prospects and that may influence his decision. Part of his research process has definitely been comparing career opportunities.
My DD is student in a Math PhD program. Seeing the recent post regarding an undergraduate degree in engineering has triggered me to respond with some information regarding my DD’s experience.
My DD had always said she wanted to major in math at a top school.At some point during her junior year in HS she changed her mind and decided to major in engineering. I am not sure what exactly triggered the change, but suspect it had to do with the perception that engineering would provide better career opportunities.
During the fall semester of her sophomore year in college she came to the conclusion that she hated engineering. It was not so much that she hated engineering, but that she missed studying math. She had completed all the engineering math requirements, and realized that the engineering curriculum left little room to take the high level math classes that she was interested in.
She was at a top 50 school known for engineering, but not considered a great school for math. She changed her major and stayed at the school anyways, and is now in a math PhD program. My perception of the Math PhD graduate school application process is similar to what others have said above - rigorous and unpredictable.
Obviously you need to be a top student to get into a PhD program, but I think my DD would say that there were a number of factors beyond her academic record that played a role in her graduate school acceptance. These would include taking graduate level classes as an undergrad, participating in math related research with a professor from her undergraduate institution, participating in math related REUs during the summers following her sophomore and junior years, grading for both physics and math professors at her undergraduate school, and TAing a class as an undergraduate.
I don’t know to what degree the level a prestige in an undergraduate institution plays a role, but I think these experiences play an important role as well…
dadof4kids how good is your son at math? There is 800 in math SAT and SAT II but huge numbers of the accepted students at HPYS have this and every student at MIT/Cal Tech. I mean has he won an major national math awards or the equivalent? Do you have any reason to believe he is likely to gain admission to these schools?
Yes the REU experience adds to the resume- and they are competitive. I suspect doing research may have subtly influenced my son’s ultimate career decisions. He also discovered there is life in the not topmost grad schools based on a classmate’s experience, he likely had an elitist attitude. Being gifted does not mean one has to go the PhD route either.
Son started with both honors math and physics sequences then after some more physics abandoned it as a potential major. The #17 post also relates how a student switched from engineering to math for good reasons. OP- it will be interesting for you to see the path your son follows in the next several years. Just knowing one can change and options are always there is useful.