McCain's the One

fundingfather · February 5, 2008, 1:11pm

janieblue,
I’m not sure if you are just misinformed or if you are intentionally spreading falsehoods, but Dole did not say that McCain “is more conservative than Jesse Helms”. He just listed a year-by-year of McCain’s versus Helm’s support for the president’s views (both Rep and Dem presidents). Some years McCain was more supportive of the president and some years Helms was. The only point of the list was that McCain has a generally conservative voting record, but in no way did it say that McCain was more conservative than Helms.

tommybill · February 5, 2008, 1:11pm

From Post 107… “I’m beginning to wonder if some “pundits” on this board even know what conservatism & liberalism are!”

Actually I would like to hear what different people on
CC think they are…anyone want to be nice today and give me their thoughts

momof2inca · February 5, 2008, 1:13pm

bulletandpima, I was using the nuclear trigger more as a metaphor for foreign policy and management of the war in Iraq. I’m not really that frightened of a nuclear holocaust (though I was raised during the Cold War and it was among the top fears of people in my generation through Reagan’s years).

I respect McCain’s service to his country very much, both in the military and as an elected representative, and I like his maverick sensibility and approach as a senator. I like him the best of the three Republicans running. I’m not sure how his temperament translates as a potential President negotiating delicate agreements with foreign powers. It worries me that he is not known as the best listener or diplomat. He reminds me of “The Decider.” Bush Redux.

bulletandpima · February 5, 2008, 1:13pm

The DOD seals the record. I am sure McCain’s debriefing with DOD about torture and the vietnamese is why it is sealed, not because Daddy Dearest said to do it. I am not sure, but I think every military member who has served in a conflict/military mission has their records sealed about what occurred. The actual word is not sealed, but classified. There are levels of classification, only the classifying agent can de-classify the records (unseal) I know someone who can tell me if that is true…I’ll get back to you

Perot is a businessman, and not generally known as a POW advocate. Perot has very little credibility…I am in, I am out, I am in again.

fundingfather · February 5, 2008, 1:15pm

"Actually if you read the letter he posted Strom’s voting record…but I agree…OUCH!

It hurts him for independents, but definetly gets the conservative"

I don’t read it that way at all. Except for '87 McCain was more likely than Helms to support Bush 1. During Clinton’s years, McCain was more likely than Helms to support Clinton. During the first 2 years of Bush 2, Helms was more likely to support Bush 2.

<a href=“http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/02/04/bob-dole-defends-john-mccain-in-letter-to-rush-limbaugh/[/url]”>http://youdecide08.foxnews.com/2008/02/04/bob-dole-defends-john-mccain-in-letter-to-rush-limbaugh/</a>

emeraldkity4 · February 5, 2008, 1:21pm

The best of the three, Hillary, Obama, McCain, is Hillary

I’ll take integrity over “experience”

<a href=“Clinton Remained Silent As Wal-Mart Fought Unions - ABC News”>http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=4218509&page=1</a>

<a href=“http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120173880879730385.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries[/url]”>http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120173880879730385.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries</a>

No one who has ever practiced law, let alone Mrs. Clinton, could argue, with a clear conscience, that these five hours on behalf of a church group that partnered with a man who at a later point in time would be alleged to be a scoundrel equated to knowingly representing a Chicago slumlord. Yet she could not resist leveling the accusation.

I suggest that this provides a window into Mrs. Clinton’s character because notwithstanding the enormous suffering she had to endure when accused of wrongful conduct in her representation of Madison Guaranty – a representation that appears to have been no more than a routine business transaction – she is willing to behave no differently than did her Whitewater accusers if she can gain politically. She appears to have learned no lessons from the Starr investigation.

janieblue · February 5, 2008, 1:34pm

ff: No, I don’t intentionally spread falsehoods, and I doubt I’m “misinformed.” However, I did not actually read Dole’s letter. I don’t listen to Rush Limbaugh, either. And for what it’s worth, I’m not voting for a Republican – never have and never will-- so I don’t really care about McCain or Romney, or that other super religious guy with the jaw that moves weirdly when he talks-- oh yeah, that would be Huckabee.

To answer your question, though-- oh, wait, that wasn’t a question, was it? Well, just to let you know-- I got my information from my local paper. Here’s what this column said, below.

In big bold letters, the heading:

BOB DOLE LIKENS MCCAIN TO JESSE HELMS

Former U.S. Senator Bob Dole has written a letter to conservative talk show host Rush Limbaugh defending the conservative credentials of Arizona Sen. John McCain.

He even compares McCain with former NC Sen. Jesse Helms.

“Not that many care, but I have not been involved in the Republican Primary contest because Elizabeth, a good conservative, is running for reelection in NC where Romney, McCain, and Huckabee each enjoy considerable support,” Dole writes in his letter.

Dole, who was Senate Republican leader from 1985-1996, said he could not recall “a single instance” when McCain failed to support the GOP on a critical vote.

Dole said McCain was consistently pro-life, a strong advocate for strict constructionist judges, supported voluntary school prayer, and backed a constitutional amendment for a balanced budget.

Dole’s letter included a chart showing that McCain supported Reagan and the first President Bush as strongly, if not more strongly, than Helms.

So, I read that as McCain has voted, over the years, along the lines of Jesse-- if not more conservatively than Jesse. Perhaps I just read between the lines. :)

Suffice to say, I’m not voting for him. He’s way too conservative for me; he’s a Republican; he is a big war-monger; he’s too old; and I think he’s losing it (mentally speaking).

Dole might like to know that a lot of us in NC equally despise his wife. I won’t be voting for her, either. Never have and never will.

I hope that clarified my stance for you, ff. ;)

bulletandpima · February 5, 2008, 1:37pm

My bad, I read it last night and for whaterver reason Strom stuck in my mid (probably because of their ages :D)

For everyone to peruse here is the letter:

Rush,

I have not seen you in a long time but I do hear you frequently and I know that you have serious reservations about Senator McCain.

Not that many care but I have not been involved in the Republican Primary contest because Elizabeth, a good conservative, is running for reelection in North Carolina where Romney, McCain and Huckabee each enjoy considerable support.

I was the Republican Leader from January 1985 until I left the Senate voluntarily in June 1996. I worked closely with Senator McCain when he came to the Senate in 1987 until I departed. I cannot recall a single instance when he did not support the Party on critical votes.

(At my age, I cannot be entirely certain but here are a few key conservative examples:)

<ol>
<li>Consistent pro-life record</li>
<li>Strong advocate for strict constructionist judges (We were misled on the Souter nomination)</li>
<li>Supported voluntary school prayer</li>
<li>Supported Constitutional Amendment for a Balanced Budget (needed two-thirds and lost by one vote - 66-34)</li>
<li>Strong advocate for reducing spending and opposing pork barrel ear marks which has, I might add, angered some of his colleagues</li>
<li>Consistent on defending Second Amendment rights</li>
<li>Opposed Hillary Care which would have been devastating</li>
<li>Probably the Senates strongest advocate for strong national defense</li>
<li>Of course he has cast many votes since I left. I totally disagreed with the McCain-Feingold legislation. On immigration, Senator McCain was not in the Senate when Congress passed President Reagans immigration legislation which passed overwhelmingly. It granted amnesty to 2.7 million illegals. It was not much different than the 2007 McCain, Kennedy, Bush effort.</li>
</ol>

I disagree with his votes against the Bush tax cuts but I believe his pledge to make them permanent and I do not agree that Governor Romney ever suggested a timetable for troop withdrawals in Iraq.

McCain is a friend and I proudly wore his P.O.W. bracelet bearing his name while he was still a guest at the Hanoi Hilton. I believe our major candidates are mainstream conservatives and that our nominee will address our concerns by keeping taxes low, reducing corporate taxes, protecting and assisting the vulnerable, strengthening our traditional values, and above all, keeping America strong militarily, whatever the cost.

Whoever wins the Republican nomination will need your enthusiastic support. Two terms for the Clintons are enough.

Gob Bless America,

BOB DOLE

P.S. Rush, I just came across a document from the Senate Library which shows Presidential Support scores. Let me give you ratings for Mr. Conservative Senator Helms through 2002 (Helms retired in January 2003) and Senator McCain through 2004.

Presidential Support

<pre><code> Senator McCain Senator Helms
 Support Oppose Support Oppose
</code></pre>

1987 65 24 77 22

1988 70 23 60 26

1989 91 9 71 28

1990 74 25 68 32

1991 86 14 84 11

1992 75 25 62 15

1993 27 70 11 84

1994 42 53 18 76

1995 35 63 20 76

1996 31 66 25 75

1997 68 29 44 51

1998 46 47 25 53

1999 38 62 18 82

2000 38 62 31 69

2001 91 9 96 4

2002 90 10 100 0

2003 91 9

2004 92 8

zoosermom · February 5, 2008, 1:44pm

“McCain has hid his record in Vietnam for a reason. He father sealed his record for a reason. Perot who is an advocate for POW’s has come out in support of Romney for a reason”

Like what?

bulletandpima · February 5, 2008, 1:54pm

I did a little research about McCain’s Dad,he retired before John McCain’s release, in other words he no longer had the ability to “classify records”

Here is John McCains Vietnam history for wikipedia:

On October 26, 1967, McCain was flying as part of a 20-plane attack against a thermal power plant in central Hanoi, a heavily defended target area that had previously been off-limits to U.S. raids.[39][40] McCain’s A-4 Skyhawk was shot down by a Soviet-made SA-2 anti-aircraft missile[40] while pulling up after dropping its bombs.[41] McCain fractured both arms and a leg in being hit and ejecting from his plane.[42] He nearly drowned after he parachuted into Truc Bach Lake in Hanoi.[39] After he regained consciousness, a mob gathered around him, spat on him, kicked him and stripped him of his clothing.[43] Others crushed his shoulder with the butt of a rifle and bayoneted him in his left foot and abdominal area; he was then transported to Hanoi’s main Hoa Loa Prison, nicknamed the “Hanoi Hilton” by American POWs.[43][44] Although McCain was badly wounded, his captors refused to put him in the hospital, deciding he would soon die anyway. They beat and interrogated him, but McCain only offered his name, rank, serial number, and date of birth.[43] Only when the North Vietnamese discovered that his father was a top admiral did they give him medical care[43] and announce his capture. At this point, two days after McCain’s plane went down, that event and his status as a POW made the front page of The New York Times.[35]

McCain spent six weeks in the Hoa Loa hospital, receiving marginal care.[39] He was interviewed by a French television reporter whose report was carried on CBS, and was observed by a variety of North Vietnamese, including the famous General Vo Nguyen Giap.[43] Many of the North Vietnamese observers assumed that he must be part of America’s political-military-economic elite.[43] Now having lost 50 pounds, in a chest cast, and with his hair turned white,[39] McCain was sent to a prisoner-of-war camp on the outskirts of Hanoi nicknamed “the Plantation”[45] in December 1967, into a cell with two other Americans who did not expect him to live a week (one was Bud Day, a future Medal of Honor recipient); they nursed McCain and kept him alive.[46] In March 1968, McCain was put into solitary confinement, where he would be for two years.[43] In July 1968, McCain’s father was named Commander-in-Chief, Pacific Command (CINCPAC), stationed in Honolulu and commander of all U.S. forces in the Vietnam theater.[4] McCain was immediately offered a chance to return home early:[39] the North Vietnamese wanted a mercy-showing propaganda coup for the outside world, and a message that only privilege mattered that they could use against the other POWs.[43] McCain turned down the offer of repatriation due to the Code of Conduct of “first in, first out”: he would only accept the offer if every man taken in before him was released as well.[47] McCain’s refusal to be released was even remarked upon by North Vietnamese officials to U.S. envoy Averell Harriman at the ongoing Paris Peace Talks.[39]

In August 1968, a program of vigorous torture methods began on McCain, using rope bindings into painful positions and beatings every two hours, at the same time as he was suffering from dysentery.[43][39] Teeth and bones were broken again as was McCain’s spirit; the beginnings of a suicide attempt was stopped by guards.[39] After four days of this, McCain signed an anti-American propaganda “confession” that said he was a “black criminal” and an “air pirate”,[39] although he used stilted Communist jargon and ungrammatical language to signal the statement was forced.[48] He would later write, “I had learned what we all learned over there: Every man has his breaking point. I had reached mine.”[43] His injuries to this day have left him incapable of raising his arms above his head.[12] His captors tried to force him to sign a second statement, and this time he refused. He received two to three beatings per week because of his continued refusal.[49] Other American POWs were similarly tortured and maltreated in order to extract “confessions”.[43] On one occasion when McCain was physically coerced to give the names of members of his squadron, he supplied them the names of the Green Bay Packers’ offensive line.[48] On another occasion, a guard surreptitiously loosened McCain’s painful rope bindings for a night; when he later saw McCain on Christmas Day, he stood next to McCain and silently drew a cross in the dirt with his foot<a href=“decades%20later,%20McCain%20would%20relate%20this%20Good%20Samaritan%20story%20during%20his%20presidential%20campaigns,%20as%20a%20testament%20to%20faith%20and%20humanity%5B51%5D%5B52%5D”>50</a>. McCain refused to meet with various anti-war peace groups coming to Hanoi, such as those led by David Dellinger, Tom Hayden, and Rennie Davis, not wanting to give either them or the North Vietnamese a propaganda victory based on his connection to his father.[43]

In October 1969, treatment of McCain and the other POWs suddenly improved, after a badly beaten and weakened POW who had been released that summer disclosed to the world press the conditions to which they were being subjected.[43] In December 1969, McCain was transferred back to the Hoa Loa “Hanoi Hilton”;[43] his solitary confinement ended in March 1970.[43] McCain continued to refuse to see anti-war groups or journalists sympathetic to the North Vietnamese regime;[43] to one visitor who did speak with him, McCain later wrote, “I told him I had no remorse about what I did, and that I would do it over again if the same opportunity presented itself.”[43] McCain and other prisoners were moved around to different camps at times, but conditions over the next several years were generally more tolerable than they had been before.[43]

Altogether McCain was held as a prisoner of war in North Vietnam for five and a half years. The Paris Peace Accords were signed on January 27, 1973, ending direct U.S. involvement in the war, but the Operation Homecoming arrangements for POWs took longer; McCain was finally released from captivity on March 15, 1973,[53] having been a POW for almost an extra five years due to his refusal to accept the out-of-sequence repatriation offer.[54]

You may choose not to support him as President, but you cannot say he did not give more than many of us are willing to give for other US Citizens.

I say it again attacking his vietnam record is political suicide…Keating 5 is a more logical direction

ag54 · February 5, 2008, 2:10pm

Or, it could just be that he got busy at work - that’s usually what my silence on any matter on a discussion forum means…

ag54 · February 5, 2008, 2:12pm

Correct me if I’m wrong, but as a lifelong “registered” Republican, I don’t think I could vote in the March Democratic primary. I believe the state of Texas doesn’t allow crossover voting in the primaries - gotta keep on top of shenanigans :)

ag54 · February 5, 2008, 2:23pm

Actually, if you go to Polling Report.com

which lists ALL of the national polls, McCain is the only Republican who looks like he has a shot against either Clinton or Obama. All of the other Repubs when shown vrs. either is a dismal second.

ag54 · February 5, 2008, 2:25pm

Have to say, I nearly spewed my coffee after reading this.

If I was at home, I’d take a shot, I said in another post that everytime I heard Reagan’s name invoked in the name of a candidate, I’d have to take a shot. BUT, I never thought his name would be invoked for Hillary ;)

bz2010 · February 5, 2008, 4:19pm

bulletandpima - thank you for your posts. Your most recent posts have been especially informative!

And I thank everyone who has posted on this thread; it has been one of the best discussions I’ve seen on CC.

I just heard Hannity on the radio criticizing McCain. I’m really surprised at his negativity. I must say, I’ve lost some respect for ol’ Sean. (Guess he’s forgotten Reagan’s eleventh commandment!). The more the “ultraconservatives” criticize McCain, the more I support him! (And I consider myself a pretty stauch conservative!).

I think some people think McCain is a “liberal” because he didn’t vote in favor of a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT on the sanctity of traditional marriage. Ironically, more amendments means more governemnt intrusion, something that goes against conservative principles.

It’s weird how some of this “ideology” gets so turned around sometimes. So far, I’ve really liked the “McCain approach”. 
We really need him in the White House!

mini · February 5, 2008, 5:23pm

"Saying Sen. John McCain is “not a conservative,” Dr. James Dobson proclaimed today he would refrain from voting in the 2008 election if the Arizona senator is the Republican nominee.

“Should John McCain capture the nomination as many assume, I believe this general election will offer the worst choices for president in my lifetime. I certainly can’t vote for Hillary Clinton or Barack Obama based on their virulently anti-family policy positions. If these are the nominees in November, I simply will not cast a ballot for president for the first time in my life,”

He oughtta know.

fundingfather · February 5, 2008, 5:38pm

“I think some people think McCain is a “liberal” because he didn’t vote in favor of a CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT on the sanctity of traditional marriage. Ironically, more amendments means more governemnt intrusion, something that goes against conservative principles.”

There are a lot more concerns than that. I am torn and have not voted yet. I know that in the general election I will support McCain or Romney over either of the Dems, but I’m having a bit of a problem voting for McCain in the primary.

mini · February 5, 2008, 5:39pm

Why not Huckabee?

bz2010 · February 5, 2008, 5:39pm

Yeah, I heard that & that’s why I mentioned the whole constitutional amendment thing.

Pretty ridiculous if you ask me!

dstark · February 5, 2008, 5:40pm

I voted for Romney today.

I don’t want McCain to be president.

I will vote democrat in Nov.

McCain's the One

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