Lol, yeah, I was a philosophy major. Now you know why.
In my experience, one has to be very smart to be a philosophy major.
I have done my best to test that premise, I assure you. But thanks for the kind words. It is heartening to debate serious issues with someone of good will, something that is too rare on the inter webs.
Nobody at UVA has been expelled for a sexual offense. You compared the standard for cheating with the standard for a sexual offense. Are you using this comparison to explain why nobody at UVA has been expelled for a sexual offense?
This is a complex problem. There aren’t going to be perfect solutions. We aren’t going to get exact numbers. But low is low.
Women are acting rationally when they don’t go to the police.
I am not pumping the statistics. I like accurate numbers too. The numbers vary depending on location for example. In a college town, you probably don’t want to be assaulted by a quarterback.
@Ohiodad51, I am helping you. If I ever am on a jury and a lawyer starts playing with numbers, his client is going to hang. 
Does your sister think there isn’t a big problem?
@Ohiodad51, my son was a philosophy major too. You have to be smart to be a philosophy major.
If I’m ever on a jury and the lawyer tries to snow me with numbers, I’m going to stop trusting anything she says. Or he says.
I’m dubious that very many acquaintance rape cases get plea bargains. Juries are so reluctant to convict, and the evidence, often, so scanty, that I don’t see many defendants copping pleas. I mean, the Vanderbilt guys took their case before a jury! How much more evidence could there be than a video of the entire thing, and yet they still rolled the dice in front of jury.
From the 2011 Dear Colleague letter:
In this interview Dean Eramo refers to informal complaints and formal complaints. Under Title IX “informal methods (e.g., mediation)” are not “appropriate” and "ill not be used to resolve sexual assault complaints. Women cannot “choose” the informal process for sexual assault complaints. Nor can the University.
I would think that Eramo would be well aware of that distinction, and therefore when she’s talking about informal complaints, she’s talking about sexual harassment not sexual assault. The admissions of guilt that she refers to were in “the context of an informal resolution meeting”; thus she was not referring to admission of guilt of of sexual assault.
She says that last year (which would have been 2013) there were 4 formal complaints, meaning there were a maximum of 4 complaints for sexual assault. There may have been fewer as although all sexual assault complaints must be formal, not all formal complaints have to be for sexual assault.
We don’t know how many of those four accused were found responsible, or of those found responsible how many were suspended. Without having the details it’s impossible to judge the quality of UVA’s decisions and sanctions. Eramo says “in general the board has opted to suspend people and have requirements on them for their return. I don’t believe they think they’ve had enough evidence to expel permanently.” Based on the information available to us I see no reason to conclude that UVA acted inappropriately, even though no one was expelled.
On May 1, 2014 when the OCR first started posting the number of colleges under investigation for their handling of sexual assault cases, there were 59 colleges on the list. On April 14, a year later, there are 105 colleges under investigation (112 complaints). And these are just cases that the OCR has accepted for investigation. We don’t know how many total claims were filed and we don’t know who’s filing them or for what reason.
http://www.shfwire.com/title-ix-investigations-drag-105-institutions/
To me this sounds like a dysfunctional system with unmanageable directives. Can you imagine the amount of funds that are being poured into both sides of these cases, both on the government level and at the colleges? For example, the Title IX coordinator at Union College said:
http://www.shfwire.com/title-ix-officials-work-keep-doe-requirements/
And the net result? No one is happ. The accusers and their sympathizers think the colleges are not tough enough, the accuseds and their sympathizers think they’re being railroaded, the government (all three branches) either wants to do a whole lot more, or a whole lot less.
When I ran a business one of my dictums was don’t solve one problem by creating another. And I think that’s exactly what’s happened here.
Instead of solving the problem of unfair treatment of alleged sexual assault victims under our existing legal system, the government (specifically the Office of Civil Rights of the Department of Education of the Executive Branch) has set up a separate system, which they feel helps the accusers get a fair shake. But in doing this they have tilted the playing field in the other direction so that the accuseds are not getting a fair shake and have done so by implementing processes which go against the grain of what most Americans expect as part of their due process rights.
So, in effect, the OCR in effort to solve one problem has created another – and worse, despite the burgeoning bureaucracy the first problem still exists!
My opinion is that the OCR, the colleges, the police and the courts should partner – in energy and in funding – to improve the way sexual assaults are handled. There is so much that can be done and so many good ideas out there. Create task forces, develop support groups to help accusers present their cases, continue to train sexual assault response teams on the police force. If necessary change the laws (in Congress) to make it more likely that sexual assault cases will come to trial.
Maybe Justice Department (not the DE) should investigate why X% of rape cases are dismissed or why women decide to withdraw their complaints.
I just can’t accept that the courts are hopeless. As in domestic violence and child abuse cases, there’s room for improvement, but I believe that the vast majority of police officers, prosecutors and judges WANT sexual assaulters to be convicted and punished.
I like how @Ohiodad51 put it: If victims of sexual assault do not give the police and the local prosecutors the opportunity to do their jobs, then there is no real hope of things getting better.
I was thinking of after the end of the semester but fine, is there anything actionable other than what was paid to the college for that semester (for whatever, tuition, housing, etc)?
@momrath, those are two really solid posts. One thing to point out, about the only thing the justice system can do is try and educate both the prosecutors/police involved and the victims to what the process is. As far as changing the law to make it easier to bring these types of cases to trial, the constitutional protections afforded to all criminal defendants severely limit those options.
I am using the difference in burden of proof to illustrate a cunundrum. The lower the standard of proof required, the harder it is to sanction someone severely. Add to that the “evolving” definition of sexual misconduct or assault in these disciplinary codes, and the general societal conflation of what is actually sanctionable conduct with common understandings of rape, and I think it is jarring. On one hand, you have “How can a guy admit to rape and not get expelled, let alone put in jail?” On the other, “am I really going to expel a kid for sexual assault because he probably got drunk and walked up to a girl and said hey let’s go upstairs so you can @#$% me?”
I am not playing with numbers. I am trying to ensure that we all use as as accurate of numbers as we can.
My sister’s work is much more focused on cycle of abuse issues in general. I think she would say that the biggest problem is education. Not necessarily in trying to convince people there is a problem, but in convincing women there is no stigma in reaching out and trying to get help. I think it is the years of her stories in how some of her clients view the whole process as rigged and hopeless that makes me such an advocate for being accurate.
Yep. Quite honestly there is relatively little playing with statistics in front of a jury, because it is too easy for your opponent to shove the numbers right down your throat. Do lawyers try and use statistics from sources favorable to them? Sure. But no lawyer is going to try and use the 1 in 5 statistic, or the 3% of rapist go to jail statistic in front of a jury. For exactly the reason you state. No one on the jury would believe a thing coming out of the lawyer’s mouth from then on.
And also, realize that with plea bargains, like in any settlement, it takes two to tango. I don’t know the Vanderbilt case, but if there was a video of a sexual assault, it is not hard to believe that the prosecutor wouldn’t really come off the indictment much, and the risk of going to trial was then relatively low for the defendants. Usually pleas occur when the prosecutor knows they will have a real issue in at least one aspect of their case and is then willing to offer something of value for the plea. Maybe an offense that carries less jail time, maybe something that does not brand the defendant a sexual predator/offender, etc. But both sides need to get something to plea bargain a serious case.
Prior to April 4, 2011 mediation was used and even encouraged in cases involving allegations of sexual assault. My illustration of the Heyman case from 2003 was one example of how mediation was failing women miserably.
When Eramo speaks of “informal complaints” that certainly does not preclude the inclusion of sexual assault complaints in all those years prior to April 2011 when universities could utilize mediation for those more serious allegations. The articles appearing in the press regarding her statements were reported in a manner consistent with my and other other posters understanding of what she was saying in that interview. Further, the interviewer asking why they were not “expelled” if they “admitted it” is clear indication they both understood what offenses they were speaking of. She then goes on to confirm she believes in the “rehabilitation” of students who admit to or commit sexual assault in response to a question posed by the interviewer. I don’t see that any clarifications, corrections or retractions were offered by Eramo regarding the subsequent reporting on that interview.
This is incorrect. The interview was conducted on Sept. 18, 2014. UVa was, at the time, working on [proposed changes](http://www.virginia.edu/sexualviolence/policy/) to its Sexual Misconduct policy. Among the changes were that sexual assault would no longer be appropriate for Informal Resolution. That is to say that as Eramo was speaking, some sexual assault cases were still being handled by Informal Resolution; that has since been changed.
Even in the [previous policy adopted in 2011](http://www.virginia.edu/sexualviolence/documents/sexual_misconduct_policy070811.pdf) Informal Resolution was not mediation, or so they said. On page 16 of the document, we find, “Although less formal that Formal Resolution, Informal Resolution is an appropriate process; it is not mediation.”
You might have wondered why Eramo said, " I can tell you I spoke to 38 sexual assault survivors last year. Nine of them brought some form of complaint forward to the board. Five of those were informal and four were formal," if when she said sexual assault she didn’t mean it.
Since the claim about sexual assault not being handled by formal resolution is wrong, all the arithmetic in the post is also wrong.
Will the two of you at least admit that Eramo did not actually say that men admit to sexual assault, let alone rape, and escape sanction by the university? I would think that is a pretty obvious point we can all agree on, right?
@Ohiodad51, a school can differentiate between a case where somebody admits to rape and your second example,… Even under the preponderance of evidence standard. The punishment can be different for two different situations… As it is at Yale for example.
There is a scene in the movie ‘Social
Network’ where these twins said they invented facebook.
Zuckerberg responded, 'If you guys were the inventors of Facebook, you would have invented Facebook".
With all the crap UVA has received,
If UVA expelled anybody for sexual assault including rape, UVA would have responded, “We have expelled students for committing sexual assaults”.
Including the interview where UVA talked about not expelling students who confessed, UVA has not done this so I can only conclude, UVA hasn’t expelled anybody for sexual assaults for a very long time. This is as of the end of last year.
I believe the 3 percent number includes those that don’t report. It is estimated that 20 percent of victims report. So, if I take your numbers, which look high to me, I get .30x.39x.20=.0234 or a little over 2 percent.
One reason I think your numbers are wrong is you aren’t differentiating college kids from everybody else. I think the numbers are worse for college kids who are assaulted. If FSU and Missoula are representative or even close, your numbers are way too high.
You can correct me if I am wrong.
I appreciate reading what your sister sees.
That kind of argument is beneath you, Ohiodad. Firstly, you know perfectly well that asking someone for sex is not a sexual assault. Secondly, that “probably” in your statement is doing a lot of work, but you have no idea what the range of sexual assault claims is. Let’s look at the range of sexual assault claims [at Yale for the first half of 2015]( http://provost.yale.edu/sites/default/files/files/Final_Jan2015_Report.pdf). Apologies for using Yale, but they publish a nice report, with some detail, and it’s reasonable to think that Yale students are similar to UVa students.
Here are the general descriptions of the sexual assault allegations, with their punishments:
“engaged in sexual touching without her consent” (put on probation)
“engaged in sexual intercourse and other sexual acts without her consent” (expelled)
“engaged in sexual touching without her consent” (pending)
“engaged in sexual activity without his consent” (pending; BTW the accused is female)
“physically assaulted her and engaged in touching of a sexual nature without her consent” (found guilty of physical assault and sexual harassment and suspended)
"engaged in sexual intercourse without her consent. " (UWC didn’t find sufficient evidence to support allegation)
“engaged in sexual intercourse without her consent.” (probation)
“trespassed and engaged in touching of a sexual nature without her consent.” (probation)
"engaged in sexual intercourse without her consent. " (UWC didn’t find sufficient evidence to support allegation)
“engaged in touching of a sexual nature” (suspension)
"harassed, intimidated and sexually assaulted her. " (UWC didn’t find sufficient evidence to support allegation)
"touching of a sexual nature without her consent, trespass, and retaliation. " (suspended)
So in the report for the first six months of 2015, there are four allegations of rape. One student was expelled, one was suspended, two were not found guilty.
She didn’t say they admit to sexual assault and escape any sanction at all, but it’s clear that at least one student admitted to sexual assault and didn’t get expelled for it. Look, the reporter spent five minutes asking her why students who admit to sexual assault don’t get expelled but cheaters do. Eramo bobbed and weaved and tapdanced about informal resolution and remorse. Eramo is not stupid, and she obviously didn’t like that line of questioning. If the answer was, students don’t admit to sexual assault and then not get expelled, Eramo would have said it.
@cardinallfang Explain to me how an unwelcome solicitation of sex is not definitionally sexual assault under the language we have been discussing? There is no requirement that force be used. The definition includes attempts. Where is the distinction? I will tell you this, language like this was proposed as new language in the Model Penal Code many, many years ago when I was in law school. There was a huge uproar then because in an effort to make it easier to prove rape, the language effectively criminalized an unwelcome solicitation of sexual favors. I think this is exactly the same type of thing. Will rational college administrators punish a guy who can’t take a hint and asks specifically for sex? I sure would hope not. But I also look at the Wuffpo article about Eramo’s statements and say, what? No freakin way. Nor am I inclined to believe that Bucknell just lets rapists walk around unhindered based on the word of one co ed.
To both @cardinalfang and @dstark, think about this. If it is this hard to get people inclined to believe that colleges should aggressively protect women that a female college dean did not say that men admit to sexual assault and get away with it when there is an actual recording of her statements, how hard do you think it will be to get people with a different perspective to be ok with saying, “Yeah, we know that technically a bunch of people in gender studies and women’s issues have the power to throw your son out of school if he solicits sex and the girl decides that it is offensive and wants to make a big deal out of it. But trust us, we would never do that?”
Probably is intended only to highlight that something is more likely than not. Or proven to a preponderance of the evidence. I did not mean to imply anything about quality or kind of sexual assault complaints.
@dstark as far as I know, the numbers of sexual assaults (actual assaults as that term is understood generally, not regrettable drunk sex or the looser definition of assault being pushed by OCR) is lower on campus than off. There are competing claims about what the numbers mean, and most stuff is put out by groups with an ax to grind on either side, so who really knows? Speaking completely off the top of my head, I would find it reasonable if there were higher cases of alleged sexual assault that revolved around effective consent on campuses, because well, kegs. Again, I am referring to “real” effective consent, intoxication, something like that - not “I was emotionally drained so I let him have sex with me”. I would guess there is a higher degree of alleged violent rape off campus because we see far higher degrees of violent crime in severely depressed socio economic areas, and I assume that trend would carry through. But I honestly don’t think anyone knows what the exact numbers are. And I also have always been suspicious of the alleged statistics of people not reporting things. I’ve seen to many jury consultants do too many surveys to really trust solicited answers. Are they generating this data by having gender studies grad students interview young women? Then yeah, I am probably going to believe those numbers are inflated just a schoosh.
And I have no information on what UVA does or doesn’t do. I take no position on it. I am saying that the over the top BS Rolling Stone article gives them cover for awhile if they are doing something wrong. And if the data is as clear as you and @cardinalfang present, then there should be no need to stretch the truth about what Eramo said in the interview. Just put out that guys are getting expelled like popcorn everywhere else and UVA isn’t keeping up with the joneses. Let people draw their own conclusions as to what that means and whether it is a good place for their daughters (or sons).
What kind of unwelcome solicitation of sex are we talking about here? Sexual assault at the very least involves touching of private parts. Soliciting sex by a grab of someone’s breast is sexual assault, but asking “Do you waaaaant to come back to my place bouncy bouncy” is not. That is to say, an unwelcome solicitation of sex by means of assaulting the person is sexual assault, and people shouldn’t do it.
Are you saying that men should be able to go around with impunity, soliciting sex by grabbing breasts and crotches of people who don’t want their breasts and crotches grabbed? I think you don’t believe that, but I’m not sure what you do believe.