Harvestmoon, At least you are consistent and wouldn’t try to appeal the case or file a lawsuit against the university, or even try to get politically active to overturn the OCR’s overreach. You will just accept that if your daughter has sex with a drunk boy then she is a rapist.
Now, what do you think are the odds that at some point in her life your daughter will have sex with a drunk man? I would say it is pretty high. Have you ever had sex with a drunk man? Do you think your daughter is a budding rapist, or that you may be one?
It could be possible that you never had sex with a drunk man. It could be possible that your daughter will never have sex with a drunk man. But on average women have sex with drunk men all the time. Couples go to a restaurant, get a few drinks in, and then have sex. It’s common social behavior. Men come back home from work, have a drink or two to take the edge off, and then have sex witht heir wives. Women do the same as well.
Just imagine how many female rapists we now have? They are everywhere!
Do you think there’s something wrong with this picture? Or do you accept it?
Do you think universities should start to expel the freshmen women who routinely have sex with drunk boys?
Actually, I remember reading a study many years ago which showed that guys had a much better chance of getting “lucky” if they were the ones who were drunk and the woman was sober, versus the woman being drunk and the guy being sober. The theory was that women were more wary of guys plying them with alcohol and put up some defenses versus the opposite scenario.
I can tell you that I have been raped plenty of times if you want to go by strict definitions. I drank to extremes and had sex with women (usually girlfriends, but not always) who did not drink much at all.
@JohnDoe4 I thought you said in the hypothetical there was no issue as to guilt?? In other words there would be nothing to appeal or grounds upon which to file a civil complaint . If there was any question as to the capacity for the man to consent then of course I would advise my D to avail herself of those rights.
Having sex with a person who is too intoxicated to consent is risky because there are laws and college codes of conduct that “can” impose consequences. If neither party has a problem with having sex under those circumstances then there really is not an issue – they are not going to file a claim with a tribunal or report it to the police. But I will advise both my children (son and a daughter) that should they choose to engage in a sexual encounter with an intoxicated person they leave themselves wide open to a complaint for sexual assault.
It’s the only kind of rape. Other kinds of sexual assault are also possible.
Look, if women are having sex with guys incapacitated by alcohol, and the guys want to complain to the college, more power to them. The women should be judged responsible, if the guys make justified allegations. I just don’t think it sounds like much fun to have sex with a guy who is incapacitated, and I don’t think that guys getting incapacitated, finding women to have sex with them and then accusing the women is going to be a program that will find great success. I don’t object to guys trying that, provided the “find women to have sex with them” doesn’t devolve into forcing women to have sex with them. But it doesn’t sound like a plan that will work.
I do object. Hatching a scheme to maliciously file rape accusations is unconscionable and immoral even if the charges are technically true. It doesn’t matter if it’s done by men or women. It also trivializes rape. This isn’t the direction we should be heading in.
Look, I think the only worthwhile point here is that - whether people want to believe it or not - in reality on a campus filled with alcohol and inexperienced, hormonal teenagers there are plenty of events that fall into the murky zone between hookups, regret sex, and rape. Extremists refuse to acknowledge this. That’s why I’m in favor of trying mediation and counseling in these cases. But skilled counselors need room to maneuver because it’s impossible to write a rule book for navigating these murky cases though there has to be oversight so this discretion isn’t abused. I think one of the bad side-effects of DCL has been to scare colleges away from using mediation / informal resolution. In my opinion, this has mostly led to tragic outcomes for both the men and the women.
The problem I have with this plan is that it’s OK when the event actually DID fall in the murky area between regretted sex and rape. But in the past it has been used for events that are not in that murky area, but are solidly in the rape area. Mediation for the Oxy couple: sure. Mediation for the Stanford swimmer and the woman: I don’t think so. Mediation for the UCSD John Doe who was suspended for nonconsensual diddling: maybe; maybe he’d seem less of a jerk if he got rid of his horrible lawyer.
@JohnDoe4 --Maybe this is where the misunderstanding is coming from. Neither of those situations that you describe above could be construed as rape unless there was force involved or one person indicated they did not want to engage. Having a “few” cocktails does not equal "so far gone"that they cannot consent. The cases we have been discussing involve allegations that one person was so intoxicated that they lacked legal capacity to consent.
Suppose she weighed 125 pounds, and dinner took two hours. We’re not talking about “a few” cocktails. We’re talking eight cocktails or more in two hours, to put her in incapacitated territory. Probably more, if she is eating food in between guzzling the drinks. That’s not having cocktails with dinner. That’s having cocktails for dinner.
“This will for sure get more rapists punished but there will be huge collateral damage. Those that support OCR believe that it is acceptable collateral damage as otherwise rapists get away which is another form of collateral damage if we use the criminal court proceedings.”
All students should realize that targeting drunk vulnerable classmates for an easy lay puts their future plans at risk and damages their non-consenting partner. It’s currently spelled out very clearly in most university conduct manuals. Those who choose to partake in this risky behavior might have allegations brought against them and lose on occasion. Those students will need to wait out the suspension (or overcome the expulsion by enrolling elsewhere), and learn from the consequences levied upon them because of their actions that harmed another.
12 Cases it appears this year. Gotta love SDSU, a public university, this is what they told a guy accused and is part of the legal complaint. This student was suspended, but has not had a hearing yet. Naughty naughty college.
In this case the woman lied to the police and there is evidence that she lied. In light of that the state declined to prosecute the man but the college actually wrote the above to the accused and the accused attorney. Unbelievable.
HarvestMoon, I didn’t ask whether it is risky to have sex with a drunk person. Of course it is. There are laws that criminalize that perfectly normal behavior that parents engage in all the time. I asked whether you think it is rape. I asked whether if the facts were indisputable that your daughter had sex with a drunk man you would consider her to be a threat to all the men on the campus, who can’t control their drinking, nor their libido when drunk, nor can they say a firm no when faced with unwanted sexual advances. I asked whether you will want your daughter kicked out of the campus then, to make the campus a safer place for the men. You haven’t answered that question.
Cardinal Fang, There is plenty of stone cold drunk sex going on right now at this very moment in our college campuses. You are out of touch with reality if you think men have to work really hard to find women to have sex with when the men are totally sloshed. What they have to do is merely launch a complaint of sexual abuse, rape, or a combo. As for great success, the goal wouldn’t be to get these women convicted of rape and then them thrown out of campus. The goal would merely be to raise a huge outrage from the female crowd and their parents thus exposing the drunk sex laws are essentially idiotic and cause the OCR to step back.
“I asked whether you will want your daughter kicked out of the campus then, to make the campus a safer place for the men. You haven’t answered that question.”
Of course no parent would want that for their child, so what? Should a daughter/female found responsible for sexual misconduct as defined in the university conduct manual be suspended/expelled or otherwise sanctioned by the universities’ conduct board? Of course.
Once again another person is avoiding my direct question. Of course rules were violated, but was it rape?
Should such a female rapist be removed from the campus not just because she violated rules, but because she is a threat to all the poor delicate roses aka males who can’t control their drinking nor their libido when drunk and lack the ability to say no.
There’s a double standard here. I am merely pointing it out.