So then you would agree that she had a right to file the claim? And re your #517 – he and every right to file a claim if he thought he was sexually assaulted… He chose not to do so. Which is fine too.
Harvestmoon, Anyone has the right to file any claim. They just don’t have the right to have that claim accepted at face value. They need to go through the criminal justice system like everyone else. No one is special in a democracy.
The reasonable behavior for an adult woman who takes responsibility for her own actions however wouldn’t be to file a claim. It would be to enroll herself in AA.
The man in this case took responsibility for his own actions and didn’t file a claim even though he had the right to do so. He should be applauded for acting like an adult. The woman, not so much.
That said, I would love to hear the tune some on this thread will sing if men were to file claims of rape en masse for all drunken encounters. There would be an outrage. Tell me, how would you feel if your daughter was accused of being a rapist after getting sloshed and having wild night with a guy who was totally sloshed as well? Would you advocate to kick her out of campus and keep it safe for the poor boys who have no agency and are totally helpless when it comes to drinking and sleeping around?
I hope you answer this. Also please don’t say that your daughter will never do anything like that. It is a hypothetical.
This just came to me. The easiest way to overturn the overreach by the OCR is to organize men’s advocates who urge men to get stone drunk and sleep around as much as possible and then file a claim of being raped right after. If they can keep a record of their BAC before engaging in sex that would be even better.
Well they actually have a right to file a claim with the college, with the criminal justice system or both. I am having a hard time with you dictating where someone should file. It’s their option not ours. If someone decides to voluntarily give up their right to proceed against someone, that’s their prerogative. But some may decide otherwise and it’s hard for me to understand why that is so shocking to you. They have rights – they exercise them.
And actually none of her claims were taken “at face value.” He was basically found not responsible for 2 of them and the other was decided against him after a hearing.
On your second inquiry regarding your hypothetical, I am sure I would feel awful if one of my own children found themselves embroiled in one of these scenarios. But I would have to help them deal with it like any other parent. But I certainly would not be putting time and energy into lamenting that the boy chose to exercise his rights and file a claim. I would get busy helping her defend against it.
What would the plan here be?
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He gets very drunk, so drunk that he would be deemed to be incapacitated. At the very least, he is puking, slurring and stumbling.
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He finds a woman who is not as drunk as he is-- because he doesn’t want her to file a claim. She can be drunk, but she can’t be so drunk she is incapacitated.
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He gets her to agree to having sex with him.
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He is able to remember what happened the next morning, so he can accuse her.
This is not impossible, but neither does it sound easy to me. Most women don’t want to have sex with a guy who is puking, slurring and stumbling.
If both parties are drunk, neither can consent. Seems like guys should get their BAC tested the morning after they boink someone as a rule.
There seems to be a significant issue in this thread where a few folks think that drunk <> incapacitated. If someone has a BAC over the limit for driving, there is a common assumption that they also cannot make other decisions rationally.
So my question is, if you are drunk, and you murder someone, are you still guilty? Or did you not know what you were doing, so you go free?
Because if you are, then if you are drunk and you have sex with a drunk person, yes it is rape. If you want to say they raped each other, fine. It is possible I hope you all know to BOTH be guilty of the same crime, ,here is a physical assault case where both were charged and one was convicted (pled guilty in this case):
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/2015/04/28/brittney-griner-plea-deal-guilty-domestic-violence-glory-johnson-wnba/26538559/
Perhaps it is pertinent that her wife (also charged) recently announced her pregnancy…
(we won’t get into why this case wasn’t more talked about nationally, it’s rather ridiculous the double standard between the WNBA and the NFL; can an NFL player beat his wife if she is near his height and weight? Can a NFL player beat his boyfriend if he is near his height and weight?)
If BOTH people were drunk at the time of the encounter, it stands to reason that BOTH should file rape charges, and if only one does, the other should respond with the same charge.
What is wrong with men filing rape charges, if there was no “physical” coercion, since both people could use verbal and other types of coercion?
Would it ever be okay that some of these cases just cannot be successfully prosecuted? Do we need to focus on “a rapist is walking free!” or “justice has not been done”? Or can we focus on supporting victims and finding out the best course for them, which might be going to court or might be not pressing charges?
It’s also interesting that gender in society is such that if a guy was raped, let’s say gotten drunk and taken advantage of, him reporting such a rape would be the object of ridicule.
http://www.vocativ.com/underworld/crime/hard-truth-girl-guy-rape/
Nobody has made that case. We’re talking a BAC around three times the legal limit for driving, or more.
Nothing. She could have blackmailed him, she could have used a weapon, she could have drugged him, he could have been incapacitated by alcohol.
Most men who file rape charges are alleging rape by other men. But not always.
Drunk driving BACs are set where they are, not because someone loses the ability to make rational decisions at that level of intoxication, but because their physical responses (mainly reflexes) are diminished at that point. The level at which someone becomes unable to understand the “nature and quality of the act” as so many of the consent laws state is unarguably much higher. I stated earlier that based on both experience and reading various BAC charts and correlation tables that I would put it at probably close to 3 times the legal limit for driving.
Harvestmoon, I have already said that they have the right to file a claim so not sure why you keep pressing that point.
Now why would you defend your daughter if it is true that she had sex with a drunk boy? By definition she is a rapist and a threat to all the boys on campus who have no responsibility for their own actions when drunk, no responsibility to not get drunk, and no ability to say no firmly to unwelcome sexual advances.
Right? Or is it that different rules apply to men and women?
Cardinal Fang, Next you will say that women don’t make sex tapes reenacting their alleged anal rape and post it on the internet for all to see either. So is it that women avoid vomiting men, but have no qualms about vomiting themselves before getting intimate? By the way, aren’t you the leading expert here on the CA law against drunk sex as well as the policies of all universities when it comes to sexual misconduct? Can you please show me where the party claiming rape has to be less intoxicated than the accused?
I do think JohnDoe4 has a point about the double standard when it comes to consent cases. Do you know what kind of outcry there would be if significant numbers of drunk guys stating filing rape claims based on a lack of ability to consent?
Actually, there probably wouldn’t be any outcry, now that I think about it, because there is not a chance in heck that any court or college tribunal would ever side with the guy. so it would be like a tree falling in the forest that no one hears.
@JohnDoe4 I keep pressing the point because after you said the above you then added:
Well no actually they don’t need to to do that. They are free to choose their venue and if they choose a college tribunal they have a right to do so.
TV4Caster, It’s a shame that after 50 years of feminism we still have such rampant sexism in society. If we must have it no matter what I say bring back chastity belts too.
@JohnDoe4 Why would I help my D defend herself??? Because everyone has the right to defend themselves. Don’t all the John Doe’s defend themselves? Aren’t some filing civil complaints? Defending against a claim is what people usually do when they do not agree with allegations lodged against them.
Really not sure where you are going with this one.
Harvestmoon, Remember the hypothetical? It is a fact that your daughter had sex with a drunk boy who was totally sloshed. Hence by definition it is rape. Why would you defend such a rapist? You can’t dispute the facts of the case as the hypothetical says the facts are accurate. So why in the world would you disagree with the allegation? Just because the facts also say the she was just as sloshed at that time?
If yes then just turn the genders around. Do you disagree with the allegations lodged against John Doe as well now? If not, why not?
If not, then please suggest why you would disagree with the allegations. Remember the facts in the hypothetical are correct and you can’t diagree with them.
As for the filing claim point I have no problem with anyone filing with the college tribunal either. Happy now? I just want the college tribunals to hand over all criminal cases to the criminal court system.
I think you mean more intoxicated, but either way, there is no such requirement. But for your plan to work, the guys would want to get women to have sex with them without valid consent, without themselves having sex with the women without their valid consent. Otherwise the guys would open themselves up to counter-claims. I’m not saying that women never have sex with incapacitated guys. I am saying that the plan would be difficult to execute.
I am saying that a policy, if you are a guy, of trying to get so drunk you’re incapacitated and then finding non-incapacitated women who want to sleep with you is not a slam-dunk, because most non-incapacitated women don’t want to sleep with guys who are incapacitated. For one thing, the women would have a justifiable fear that the guys would be bad in the sack.
Cardinal Fang, Don’t worry about counter claims. Women who have sex with drunk men and then claim rape don’t worry about counterclaims either. They just file. Men need to just start filing as well. The outrage that will result will end up in dismantling OCR’s overreach.
Can you imagine some boy calling little Suzie a rapist just because Suzie had sex with the boy when he was drunk? Which upstanding parent of a daughter will stand for that? The horror! The horror!
By your own calculations, TV4, for a guy the window between being just barely incapacitated, and being unable to perform, is small. Not non-existent, but small.
So in your hypothetical a girl has sex with an incapacitated man - that is already proven in some way I will assume. Well if that man had filed with a college tribunal then I am assuming the girl would have been found guilty and likely expelled. What can a parent do in those circumstances? You can’t change the rules of the University and if it were my own D she would have known what the rules were before going in. She took a risk and lost.
I am sure it would not be happy times in our home. I’d probably call someone like @Hanna who advises students who find themselves in these situations, and see what options are available. Some students are able to matriculate at other colleges after being expelled. You do what you can in situations like that.
Yes, I am happy now. 
If by perform you mean getting an erection, then surely you must be kidding? Is penetration the only form of sex in your book? You are the resident expert of the law, Cardinal Fang. Please show me where sex is defined as penetration?
What’s good for the goose is good for the gander, too. If a woman lures a drunk guy to go down on her, that’s rape! The law says so. The same is true if a woman gives head to a drunk guy in an attempt to get him erect.
Rape all around. With so many female rapists roaming our streets I don’t know how men are functioning in society and not hiding in the corners afraid to come out. Men’s urinals must be PTSD central where men cry silently after having sex with a woman when drunk.