The academic rigor, expectation, and quality of some of the higher vocational institutes in those countries, Eastern Europe, or East Asia can rival those of US universities including some in the Top 50.
One case of this was how a younger friend from the former Soviet Union/Russia who was found to be only qualified for a higher vocational STEM-centered high school for students aspiring to enter Soviet/Russian Armed Forces schools to train commissioned officers had no issues entering and excelling as a CS major at a top 50 university once he and his family sought asylum here in the US.
Also, he started at that uni less than a year after arriving in the US.
@zinhead 's post “One woman once told me that she could use statistics to determine how many of my friends were rapists.”
I do find this to be objectionable stereotyping. If a white guy told a black person that he could use statistics to determine how many of his friends went to prison, that would be offensive (in addition to incorrect). So is this. You can’t determine much about specific individuals using statistics.
That is just old-fashioned stereotyping. It just doesn’t seem as offensive in this case because the person being stereotyped is a white male.
I am a HUGE fan of technical skills and the trades. The idea that you have to go to college is ridiculous and I hate it.
Separate issue from whether or not (white) men feel hostility.
I asked the two recent-ish male college grads I live with. One said no and laughed. The other said yes, when he was in drag. When presenting as cis, no.
They both also said they’ve used their male privilege to walk other people home because they know there’s a very good chance no one would mess with them.
@Much2learn it may be objectionable but is “One woman once told me” worth leaving college over?
I have no idea what she meant by “use statistics” but some number of men do rape women. I think most of us hope our friends are not among those that do. Is it a stereotype to say that, though?
Somehow a long list of comments from women pointing out in a hostile way that there is no hostility towards men, and that some of them are rapists anyway, is not very convincing.
I think that America would be a better place if more of us tried to learn how to listen.
@DadTwoGirls if you are referring to comments in this thread, and really think of them as “hostile,” then sure, maybe men do face what you consider to be hostility.
As a woman, not a single comment in this thread would have even been on my radar as “hostile.” I’d have love to have gotten through college only experiencing this level of “hostility.”
Well, men DO rape. And women DO have to be cautious. As a dad to two girls, I’m surprised you’re surprised by this. The question is whether that reality translates to “hostility” to the average male on campus. Here, some of us women are highly skeptical.
“I have no idea what she meant by “use statistics” but some number of men do rape women. I think most of us hope our friends are not among those that do. Is it a stereotype to say that, though?”
I think whenever you are making a claim about a person or group because of some generalized statistics or a perception about that group, you are stereotyping.
You are male, therefore…I know x and y about you and your friends even though I have never met you before.
You are female, therefore…
You are black, therefore…
You are latino, therefore…
You are white, therefore…
In my mind, when you say, according to research, x% of men commit rape, that is a fact. However when you change it to assert you can know about the criminal activity of a specific person’s friends just because they are male, that is just not accurate. That ignores many other relevant factors.
For example, say I know that, on average, American’s have one testicle. That may be true, but when I try to say that since you are an American, you must have one testicle, that is not necessarily true at all.
@OHMomof2 “it may be objectionable but is “One woman once told me” worth leaving college over?”
Of course it isn’t. It sounds whiney to me.
It is definitely more concerning when there is a larger group who really believes a harmful stereotype, like “women are just not good at computer science.” This is more concerning because there is a sizable group of people who actually believe this. It is also more problematic when people with authority over women at a university believe it.
One male student in a position of some authority to impact her work in a CS-focused university club told D1 that women should not be allowed in the Computer Science program because they are not good at it. This is harmful and is intended to make them feel inadequate and possibly consider dropping out. Fortunately he picked a female who is exceptionally accomplished by any standard, and not willing to put up with that type of garbage. If he had happened to pick a student who was struggling, he might have done real harm.
What did D1 do when confronted by this male student in a position of some authority? Hopefully, whatever she did made it impossible for him to pull the same shtick ever again.
She said she did a little checking with peers, and that revealed that, unsurprisingly, the same guy had made similar comments to at least one other female student. She scheduled a coffee with a Director who is on the oversight board who oversees the program/club to discuss it. The following week the Director spoke with the offending student and let him know if there are any more reports of this type of behavior he will lose his position. She had no subsequent issues with him.
She feels that most men in the CS program at her school they don’t make it an issue, but we are not completely there yet, unfortunately. Whether it is comments about women, Blacks, Latinos, gays, Asians or anyone else, I think it is slowly getting better, but it is also frustrating that people still have to deal with this stuff in 2017.
@Much2learn - Yes, you can definitely estimate how many of your friends are likely to end up in prison given the amount of known data for a particular person. I don’t find that offensive at all, universities teach those predictive methodologies in machine learning, geostatistics and data science among others. @Zinhead is just stating a fact. Is that offensive? Maybe, but it does not make it untrue.
Your daughter sounds like a leader for the new generation. You must be proud of her. She handled it beautifully and I am glad that the director was receptive to her approach.
@tooOld4school “Yes, you can definitely estimate how many of your friends are likely to end up in prison given the amount of known data for a particular person. I don’t find that offensive at all, universities teach those predictive methodologies in machine learning, geostatistics and data science among others. @Zinhead is just stating a fact. Is that offensive? Maybe, but it does not make it untrue.”
I think it isn't @Zinhead 's comment. It is just in Zinhead's link.
I think that claiming to know about someone because they are a member of a group they are in is basically the definition of stereotyping.
For example, people are getting killed because of idiots seeing someone with a head covering and thinking they are a muslim terrorist. In reality there were probably 3 or 4 incidents of Muslim Terrorism in the United States last year, and there are over 3 million Muslims. So basically there is maybe a 1 in a million chance that the person is right. Although that is probably way overstated because the Muslim men conducting most of the attacks don’t wear head scarves.
They imagine they are attacking terrorists, but they are often really attacking innocent Muslim women or Indian Sikhs. Stereotypes are not good.
Regarding the lack of men in college, some of it must be related to men being significantly more likely to join the military, go to prison, or attend a trade school. Although that would not not explain why the ratio getting worse.
Many colleges try to keep the male/female ratio close to 50/50 if they can, so I think @RelicAndType is right that it does probably improve opportunities for boys.
A lot of men just don’t want to sit and read and write and study. College is fun in other ways, but the academic side can be a real drag. With the increased cost of college and the attractiveness of other options, the trend will continue to be against college.
Well I would HOPE that no one is giving up a dream of a college degree because he thinks the girls are saying mean things. My goodness. But I work on a college campus and interact with students frequently, and I don’t get the sense that this is a real and pressing issue.
The other reasons listed for not pursuing college are legitimate.