“What gets me is if we had bought a nicer house, redone our kitchen, gone on vacations, and lived beyond our means in luxury just making payments on things, then my son would have gotten full tuition covered at the IVY.(our income is less than 60K)… but it is set up so you are penalized for saving!!!”
@runswimyoga, @Zinhead my H in particular is pretty perturbed as we come to grips with this concept.
I don’t like it either, but to me it’s more nuanced than that. I’d rather have assets in hand than try to predict and manage “need” 5-10 years out into the future (especially if you have multiple kids). Particularly when “need” may be capriciously defined by individual schools, and/or the federal government calculation parameters may change.
Assets are tangible. Need is not.
Trying to pull punches on asset building or debt management in order to present a case for more need seems, to me, like walking a tightrope. For years on end. There’s a school of thought that the next recession will be worse than 2008-09, not to mention the other curve balls that life throws at us: unemployment, major illness, etc.
We can’t justify holding an emptier bag than necessary because we thought we could prevail in the aid arena. The colleges are way ahead of 95% of us in their sophistication with the intricacies of this game, and the government is unpredictable.
The real Coke-vs-Pepsi division is between those who think no UG degree is worth $250-300K under any circumstances, whether the assets are available or not, and those who find that outlay acceptable for the “right” school, whether the assets are available or they have to borrow.
I know which camp I’m in, but I’m careful not to judge those who are in the other.
@runswimyoga I am not in any pain and after a few hours he wasn’t either. He reacted like this after a girl asked him to the Junior prom.
This school was on his original list, and after visiting stayed on. He already has two Skype calls with well known journalism alums, both of which are at the top of their field.He can get right to work on the school’s top newspaper, top literary magazine and top radio station and has already made connections for meaningful work next summer.
@Consolation Columbia, U Penn, Northwestern, UCLA, USC, U Missouri, Georgia, Trinity Ct, Syracuse are also on the list of approved schools. The fact the topic is sports is totally irrelevant and it is simply an attempt to marginalize the school. Serious writing is present in all genres.
Had the merit award come from more “acceptable” schools of the intelligentsia, the reaction to my post would be far different. That is without question. You can this in virtually all of the responses.
??? OP- you posted here asking for opinions and you got them. I’m not sure what or who you are demonizing. You wanted perspective on why your kid wasn’t jumping up and down for joy. The actual school in question is somewhat irrelevant IMHO. If you didn’t want perspective from the “intelligentsia” (not even sure who you are insulting here) why post on a public message board? Ask someone at work, talk to your dentist, get a second opinion from the guy at the bagel store. But to come here and insult people who are trying to help you??? This I don’t get.
For the record- your son is a teenager. Give him time to sort things out. He doesn’t need to be screaming from the roof-tops in order to make a good decision. Hope this doesn’t sound too elitist for you. over and out.
Daughters too. In my observation the “stuff just got real” result of the EA acceptance/offer season is causing 17-18 year olds to have some reactions that seem irrational to us.
OP, I’m not sure what all the defensiveness is about. St. Bonaventure is a fine school, and that Jim Murray Foundation journalism award is wonderful, but as it was founded by the wife of an award-winning sportswriter and in the past has actually required students to write in his style of reporting, I’m not sure why you’d be upset that sports-writing was mentioned or that SB was cited as being particularly strong in that area.
You had argued earlier in the thread that SB is a “top shelf journalism school,” as evidenced, among other things, by the fact that its students have won the Murray award on multiple occasions:
And you were rather dismissive of Syracuse, which is suprising, given that John Fiske (the former New York Times education writer and publisher of the well-regarded Fiske Guide series) specifically recommends Syracuse for communications/journalism.
Honestly, I don’t see the responses here being “overwhelmingly ridiculous.” You sought opinions and received them. Insulting those who tried to give you honest feedback seems uncalled for.
What I would love to say to you if we could sit down together over a cup of coffee…
Trust your child. Let him lead the way in this process. Be there to support him, but only as he asks you to. You have done a great job up to now, and there are several great schools in the mix for him to choose from.
You are a good parent, and you obviously care. Step back and watch your son grow as he walks through this important decision.
I’ve read most but not all of the posts on this thread. I think that there are some very thoughtful replies. People are volunteering their time in an effort to be helpful to others who ask questions or seek opinions. I think the OP got opinions that reflect considerable thought. The OP may not agree or the posts may not resinate as relevant to the OP’s situation but the posts are clearly thoughtfully written.
I can understand most of the divergent viewpoints expressed here. Many students hear about college from the time they start preschool. I think that is unfortunate but it is the case. Some students are encouraged to work hard to get good grades so they can get into a good college. I think that is unfortunate but it is the case. For some, even those not encouraged by parents to get “good grades for college”, by the time they are seniors they have been working for years and years for the payoff of going to what they consider to be a great college. They’ve put in the work and now expect that pay off. Had people said “get good grades so you can go to a college if we can afford it” maybe that would be different. Many students see acceptance to a “good college” as the entitlement earned by working for years for grades that will “get” them into a “good college”. I can understand how constraints that appear, seemingly out of the blue for some students, would result in angst.
Further, some students may see constraints imposed by scholarships as reducing their options, “Oh good, I’m so good and worked so hard so that I now must conform to constraints imposed by the scholarship whereas if I got no money I’d be freer to do what i want”.
For parents who can afford it without selling their home (and I don’t mean simply a second mortgage), willingness to pay, how much (and on and on) are all a values thing. People have different values. Some don’t think paying more for college X is ever worth it. Some think it is worth it if College X is this or that compared to College Y. Some think it makes no sense to pay more for College X if the student intends to apply to professional school later. My values won’t translate well into advice here because they are likely to be different from the OP’s and from some other posters. My opinion is driven by the importance I place on certain variables related to academics. Yeah, I’d sell the house. But most people would view that as fool hardy.
Pertaining to Syracuse U, the Newhouse school is very difficult to get into and it is very expensive. Merit is less likely since all who get in are deserving but it is possible. Newhouse is second to none. I don’t think (training to accomplish/acquire skills for) a narrow definition of journalism makes any sense in today’s climate but we surely do need journalists (broadly trained in all mediums) and they need to do a better job at distinguishing themselves from bloggers and other writers. I think the Newhouse would be top of my list but I am not the OP. I have no association with Syracuse U, by the way.
I had my share of toe-stubbing in my first month as a CC member, but at no point did I use the word “ridiculous” not once, but twice, to refer to experienced members’ contributions to a discussion I initiated. The OP has received constructive feedback that I think has been quite diplomatically worded. Not to sound judgmental, but it seems short-sighted for a new member to risk burning bridges when the CC community is such a valuable resource. Perhaps the topic simply hits too close to home.
I agree with powercropper that your son needs to evaluate all these choices, but am firmly of the opinion that mommy and daddy do not have to bankrupt themselves to provide junior the dream school when there are perfectly good options on the table. Even if parents allowed kids to apply to $280K Ivy League schools, mommy and daddy can simply say no. Sure, worst case there will be sad posts to CC and moaning to fellow classmates …
but at least I am not living in their basement a poor broken old person who is bitter.
So if the large merit option has serious disadvantage, possibly including some school characteristics the student finds upsetting (weather, greek culture, etc - and again I said maybe), that is a fair comment for him to make.
Similarly, dream schools are often much less dreamy than they first appear, and again $100K in debt (parental, kids, lack of savings) is $900 a month for 10 years (enough to help granny afford a studio apartment down the road rather than living in your basement and sulking on your couch).
We write the check so get … well more than 50% of the say. I’m intelligent, I do research, I know fiscal realities, I know my personal finances … and an 18 year old that has always had everything … knows the dorms are nice and the USNWR of each school - and can then keep digging for info on their major, the actual school culture, etc
We can then discuss …
To phrase this another way, if my kid had applied to a specific Ivy for a specific program and wanted to pursue international banking or a career on Wall Street or some specialty program (including some without 7 figure potential salaries) - I could see being sold on that too.
“Had the merit award come from more “acceptable” schools of the intelligentsia-” Not really. And it’s uncomfortable to hear, when many offered reasonable advice and/or their own stories. We spend a lot of time on CC advising kids and parents on finding the fit- and that’s mutual between the kid and the college, many factors, not some absolute determination of “best.”
I’m not sure what ‘higher quality’ (another uncomfortable comment) you expect from an anon forum. We posters have had similar experiences with our own kids and lived through them. We’ve been through the vetting of colleges and know it’s not as simple as what the uncle thinks, whether you prefer a smaller school, or what awards others got. It’s an important time to listen to our kids, to be sure we have the right “read” on their needs.
@MotherOfDragons this OP has had a lot of years to build up her point of view about the college admissions process. Yes, it might be easy for strangers to see a different slant to the situation, but we don’t have the emotional investment that she does.
I am hoping that OP can ignore the mean-spirited comments and yet still be open to trying on some of the other points of view that don’t match OP’s current way of thinking. (And OP, if you are a HE and not a SHE, forgive me. Can’t remember if I actually read your gender or just mentally assigned one to you.)
Parents have a high stake in the outcome of this process, and we only want the best for our children. Sometimes we want it too much, though, and it gets in the way of the student being free to make their own decisions.
runswimyoga: you managed to save over $270K beyond what is needed for retirement on less than $60K per year? Or is that a recent event and your previous income was much higher or had outside contributors to the college fund? Your assets must be fairly substantial to take you from full tuition paid to zero FA at an Ivy. Using the Harvard NPC, with a parental income of $55,000, even with assets of $300K (whjich are non-primary home assests, the parents portion is only $5,000. Even if the kid has all $270,000 in his name, the family contribution is only $23,000. How are you full pay?
Not trying to be nosy, but there must be more to the story than typical for a family with such a low income. .
One could also argue that families in which one parent stays home get an advantage in the financial aid game, while those with both parents working do not get “credit” for the higher costs of running the home including child care, while the higher combined salary means no financial aid. Or, at some schools, the non-custodial parent’s income is not counted even if that parent has plenty of money. Or the cost of living in different areas of the country. Nothing is completely fair, certainly not paying for college.