<p>If there is just an increase, I really doubt that a pay increase is going to tons more people decide “heck, I’ll teach.” Hopefully, the school will weed out these candidates, but if they don’t… There are always going to be unqualified people getting as much money or more as people who are more dedicated. We can’t dole out extra money by which teacher is “better.” How would we measure that?</p>
<p>Teacher A: Teaches an AP classes like a robot but constantly does practice test after practice test and all his/her students get 5s. Everyone hates the class by the end, and is glad that their 5 will allow them to never take another class like that again!</p>
<p>Teacher B: Engages students and encourages them to think independently about what they’re learning and makes the subject INTERESTING, while also teaching “above and beyond” the AP test. Many students get 4s or 5s, but not all, but they still loved the class and do independent reading on their own about it or are interested in taking classes in that subject area in college.</p>
<p>(Two extremes, but I’ve seen both.)</p>
<p>Which one is better? Teacher A just because of the test scores? Is that the purpose of education? Doing well on a test just to ‘get out of it’ later? Or is it really to learn and become passionate in something so students can pick something they will enjoy doing for the rest of their lives?</p>
<p>So the solution here would be to increase pay across the board hoping that more people who are genuinely interested in teaching will become teachers. The school determines who they will hire and who they won’t, and hopefully because of the pay increase they will have a pool of better candidates to choose from.</p>
<p>Edit: Posted concurrently with paying3tuitions, and that’s another good point. Urban teachers wouldn’t make as much, and they’re the ones that are needed! So would the quality teachers go to suburban schools to make more money? I hope not all of them would, but I think that would happen to at least some extent… it would only widen the gap between the education of urban and rural/suburban students.</p>
<p>I will agree if the money was only going to be doled out to those teachers who enroll students they know will get 5s on the test.
However, my daughter was in remedial classes while she was taking AP classes and she had the same AP teachers that the “top” students had.</p>
<p>The info I have, says that while the money will go for teachers who spend extra time in training, it doesn’t say that it will be limited to teachers whose students receive 5’s or even 4’s .</p>
<p>I don’t think it necessarily is harder to teach an AP class. AP students are more likely to enjoy learning and have motivation to learn coming from many sources, whereas in a lower level class the students might not see how school applies to their life (of course some lower level students love learning and some AP students hate it, but at least at my school, those are the exceptions to the rule), and I would argue that it’s more difficult to teach disinterested students. Sure, less assignments to grade, but there would have to be a lot more engagement in the classroom… Sort of like how most teachers consider suburban schools “easier” to teach at than urban schools. It might be more in-depth in suburban schools, but suburban students have a lot less obstacles than students from urban areas and it makes them easier to teach. Plus the whole richer students tend to take AP classes and those same richer students also have access to outside sources of help (parents, tutors). The economically disadvantaged taking the lower level classes are less likely to have this support system. It just seems like a lot of factors outside how much work is assigned can affect the “difficulty” of teaching a certain group of students.</p>
<p>Ah, I thought of something else: What about AP classes that are just easier? Or are more cummulative? AP Stat is definitely easier to get a 5 than AP Spanish. And I know that I didn’t learn all my Spanish in my AP Spanish class- it was more of a combined effort of all the teachers I’ve had (five different ones), and would only the AP teacher get the credit?</p>
<p>Put that way, I vote “yes.” Additional training and an expectation of more preparation hours is measureable. It’s strictly a matter of the teacher’s investment, and not dependent on who are her students.</p>
<p>That compares to the common practice that teachers with specialties, such as Special Education (requiring significantly more coursework and specialized training – not just a workshop or two) receive slightly higher pay than mainstream teachers with the same number of years of teaching experience.</p>
<p>It must also be frustrating, on a family level, to have a shot at improved coursework for your daughter, through outside funding, just slip away like this. Thansk for bringing it to the attention of everyone here. </p>
<p>It’s interesting that the legislator who tried to mediate couldn’t get cooperation between the unions and the funders, and yet says he blames neither party. I don’t jump to call the union stubborn, because it could have also been the funders who were insistent (my way or the highway). I’m sorry it fell through. :(</p>
<p>I’ve read “Punished by Rewards” and it is written by someone who has used statistics in the worst possible way, to prove a predetermined point.</p>
<p>The world, whether you like it or not, works on rewards (which don’t have to be financial, of course) - most people, given a choice, will gravitate to an activity that provides the greates rewards. As for differential pay for different subjects, look at your average university - the buisiness professors make a LOT more than the english professors. Something Adam Smith figured out a couple of centuries ago.</p>
<p>And if the teachers think this is a bad idea, why not let them, v. the union, reject it…</p>
<p>I wish there were politicians who had the balls to expose the teachers unions for the tax paying rapists they are and had the moral fortitude to go after them. To have private industry decide to go union is 1 thing, but when government employees form unions, all tax payers get taken to the house and the teachers union is one of the worst.</p>
<p>Find a way to keep the money, how can you pass up millions of $? If the merit portion of this is what is causing the problem, have the teachers give it to charity or even back to the union. Just don’t miss out on the benefits of the gift.</p>
<p>My daughters school is just north of Franklin and allows anyone who really wants to, to take an AP class.
The principal wants the kids to have the experience, of attempting to raise the bar & he also backs it up with extra support for students to do so.</p>
<p>THis would have been a great opportunity for the Franklin community and backed up with money for extra teacher training-
My H also belongs to a union in Seattle.
He is at the same grade level at his company that he has been at for years, because in his job title, that is as high as the powers that be, decided it would go.
HOwever, he does jobs for people out of his shop, he is sent to other states to train people & he has been moved around during tough times, in order to keep him on the payroll over people that have seniority who are being laid off.( much as what they have done in school district)
But they can’t pay him any more, than any other person who just puts in their hours and go home, because that is against collective bargaining.
Horsepatootie.
He would love to recieve extra pay for the extra training and special projects that he is called in from vacation for, however that is against union rules. ( except for overtime)
So what the company ends up doing is giving him pay through * award chits* that then will pay for purchases at the company catalog.
Oh. Boy.
He gets say $300, for a well done project, he pays taxes etc on it, but it isn’t handed out as cash but as points. Most of the things are like " pay $86. in points for a clock radio that would cost $40 at Costco."
The only way to actually get the dollar amount that has been added to your income is to purchase gift certificates for that amount. Unfortunately, the only certificates are three stores that we don’t normally frequent, Nordstroms, Lowes & Barnes and Noble, but it is better than nothing I suppose.
Perhaps the teachers would prefer that?</p>
<p>Westerndad- I talked to my teachers today and they said the opposite. I don’t know, I guess it depends on the teacher/school. All I know is that here, EVERYONE wants to teach Honors/AP and for the last four years I’ve listened to my teachers complain about teaching the lower levels, and how nice our classes are… I don’t exactly agree with that (they should at least keep quiet about it to their students), but that seems like the general consensus here.</p>
<p>These are exactly the reasons why many teachers’ unions and educational organizations are against merit pay. It unfairly values some educational categories (i.e., math and science) over others (music and art). And the teachers who choose to go into one field over the other because of love and skill end up getting shafted.</p>
<p>Besides that, merit pay has racial and socioeconomic backlashes too. Schools in poor neighborhoods are more likely to have failing students on national exams. Merit pay will cause teachers to go flocking from the schools that really need them to suburban schools that will give them extra pay for the high-achieving students there. African American and Latino/a children also score lower on tests than white and Asian students, so the teachers who teach these disadvantaged groups will be at a disadvantage themselves.</p>
<p>I’m not saying that the concept of merit pay isn’t a good one, but there needs to be careful consideration into how its handled.</p>
<p>It’s not an accident that NMSI is located in Dallas, Texas. </p>
<p>School Named Top in the Nation: Newsweek published its list of top 1,200 schools in the United Sates, and a Dallas, Texas TAG magnet gifted and talented school placed first. Congratulations to the School for the Talented and Gifted at Yvonne A. Ewell Townview Center! </p>
<p>Eighty-three percent of Townview’s student body – this is grades nine through 12 – is African American or Hispanic. Thirty-six percent of the total student body took at least one AP, or advanced placement, exam. Twenty percent of the entire student body passed at least one advanced placement exam. So there is high participation rates in advanced placement. And at the Science and Engineering magnet school, for three yeas running, more African American and Hispanic students passed advanced placement calculus than any other school in the United States, public or private.</p>
<p>And in 2005, 35 of the African American and Hispanic freshmen and sophomore students passed AP calculus and that is more than any other school in the country. </p>
<p>Juliet, I’m trying hard to be mature here,but COME ON! You have paper thin arguments versus merit pay. The fact is that the US keeps throwing money and money and more (tax) money at schools and the quality of the product (high school graduates) is sinking. The reason minority school districts don’t do well on standardized tests is completely de-coupled from good teacher-bad teacher. It has to do with families not giving a crap about school. Period. You find me a family that values education in ANY neighborhood and I’ll show you a kid who will do well in school. You don’t need the best teachers to give a lecture, require homework and facilitate learning. In fact, I submit that teachers who teach at these types of schools are wasting their talent. You don’t need the latest technology, brand new computers, i pods and brand new buildings to teach the fundamentals of liberal arts. Most of the parents in here (like me) I’m sure did well with text books, note books and overhead projectors. You can learn just as well from overheads as you can from powerpoint, if need be. Why in the world would you want the best teacher teaching in an area where most students just don’t care? Why NOT shift them to the schools where they will have the most impact? Besides, it all depends on how you define “Best” teachers. If I were living in a state with budgetary issues and a booming population (which I am), my idea of the best teachers would be the ones that can effectively teach 25 students at once. Pay them, more, make them the model and train others in that paradigm. Trust me, most students don’t need a 5:1 student to teacher ratio to learn, only the slower students do (politically incorrect, but 100% true). I’m sure most who read this are mad at me right now, but if you remove pure emotion from the situation ans look at the facts, I am right. Just because you were taught a view of social justice in school doesn’t make it the most accurate view of reality. </p>
<p>Teachers should be evaluated on merit just like the rest of us working people…actually, they should be held to a higher standard, as they are using our tax money. Is the merit system in Washington perfect? I’m guessing not but tell me one person working in private industry who has a system that is perfect. The trick is to implement a good system and continually improve it. that concept, at it’s very core is anti modern union.</p>
<p>Can someone name me 5 tangible, quantifiable benefits the unions have implemented to increase the quality of education (not the quality of the teacher’s lives, which is mutually exclusive from educational quality)? The union represents the best interest of the TEACHERS and consequences to the students be damned. I have a friend in NYC that (at tax payer expense) qualifies for lifetime health benefits this year because he has taught 10 years. Lifetime health…WOW! This is at the tax payers expense mind you.</p>
<p>Merit pay is in no way in the best interest of the teachers. It is in the best interest of a small number of good teachers, but detrimental in the aggregate. The union would ruin the quality of education long before thy would gladly embrace this sort of system. Sad, but that’s politics. What’s even sadder is that most teachers are on board with union policy. Wouldn’t we all love to eliminate our annual review and hide behind the curtain of “creative freedom”. ok, my rant is about done now :)</p>
<p>Merit pay is another band-aid on a hemorrhaging educational system. What we need - as a teacher - is a restructuring of the American school. Administrators earn twice what a teacher earns, the district office admin earns half again as much…Your tax dollars are not being spent on your children, and I for one am not getting rich in my classroom.</p>
<p>Hedda, that is so true. Our education system should be based on two pillars: teachers and students. In the current system, the most important people are held hostage by interest groups fighting for control and financial windfalls that have little to do with education. </p>
<p>Students AND teachers should be able to select a system where they can blossom. Right now, in the Ubnited States, school choice DOES exist, but it is restricted to the people who can afford to send their children to schools outside the monopoly of public schools or afford to work for a smaller paycheck. To climb of this hole, we need a level playing field and a system that rewards some form of competition among various systems. </p>
<p>I believe that most families greatly underestimate the deep malaise that exists in the public education system, as well as the incredible difficulty of replacing the millions of teachers who will retire in the next decade. While more money for the “system” is hardly the correct answer, more money and choices for good teachers is part of the solution.</p>
<p>And I am continually shocked at how complacent most families are when it comes to their own community’s public schools. It reminds me of the international comparison (TIMSS, I believe?) that found U.S. students had the highest confidence in their abilities, yet performed among the worst.</p>
<p>The overwhelming majority seem to think that they have ‘excellent’ schools, and that only other communities’ schools are underperforming. Given the fact that it’s usually the popular members of the community who get elected to the school board, and they too continue to believe their schools are ‘excellent,’ they tell community residents exactly what the residents want to hear - ‘Our schools are excellent! and outstanding!’ - regardless of the accuracy of that statement.</p>
<p>It is virtually impossible to get a school district to improve when they already believe they’re exceptional and outstanding, and the community complacently eats this up as well.</p>
<p>The Atlantic Monthly’s Jan/Feb issue had an article advocating national, not local control of public education. Provocative stuff, starting with the title:</p>