I am interested in finance or actuarial science, and I would like to work at a financial company after graduation.
I understand that Michigan and Swarthmore are two very different schools, but they both have things that attract me. Michigan obviously has a very well established business school with good alumni network. But I’ve never been there before, so I don’t know what the campus is like. Also–feel free to disagree with me–I feel that Michigan academics wouldn’t be challenging enough for me. I’ve looked at the official Michigan school profile and also my school’s naviance report, and the average SAT and GPA of enrolled students are all lower than mine (2300+ and 4.0).
Swarthmore, on the other hand, is known for its intense academic setting and strong undergraduate study. But it doesn’t have a business school, so I am afraid that it won’t prepare me well enough for a career in business. I’d have to self study for those actuarial exams. But the plus is that Swarthmore students are free to take classes at Penn, including Wharton. So that would be a huge advantage.
How does job placement in business field compare for these two schools?
Also I got accepted at Berkeley… But my mom just said no because it’s too expensive and 50k a year is not worth it (opinions? Even for Haas?). Should I give up on Berkeley? It is my dream school, and the fact that I got in but cannot go because of money makes me very depressed : (
Why would Cal be more challenging than Michigan? And if you only go by SAT/ACT and GPA ranges, why would Swarthmore be more challenging than Ross? Ross is at least as selective as Swarthmore. But selectivity and academic intensity are not perfectly correlated. Michigan LSA is academically challenging, especially if you design your curriculum as such. You can double major in Mathematics and Business, and take challenging and intellectually stimulating classes within LSA.
There are obviously going to be several major differences between Michigan and Swarthmore:
Swarthmore is a liberal arts college, where the faculty is primarily focused on teaching undergrads. Michigan is a research university, where the faculty has a strong commitment to research and advising graduate students.
At Swarthmore you will major in Economics. At Michigan, you will major in Business and Mathematics.
Socially, Swarthmore will be quite limited and homogenous. Michigan will offer far more variety. In other words, Swarthmore will appeal to a narrower subset of students than Michigan.
Forget about Cal. Considering your interests, Michigan makes more sense.
By the way, taking classes at Wharton will not give you that much of an advantage. You will not be affiliated to Wharton in any way that matters. You certainly will not gave access to the Wharton career office. If Wall Street placement is important to you, Ross makes better sense than Swarthmore.
The poster above says forget about Cal, but Cal is overall ranked a better education than Michigan (use any source), and Haas is ranked better than Ross for business.
I am actually a senior that was accepted to both Cal and Michigan, and while I do think Cal is better academically, I think overall Michigan has a much stronger social life.
I dont think you should cross Cal off your list if you want an academic challenge. It has a top 20 reputation and top 3 undergrad business school along with a reputation to be among the most rigorous schools in the nation.
Also, unless you are instate for michigan, Cal and UM would cost the same amount.
I went to Ross, and had a kid accepted at Swarthmore. Don’t worry – you will be plenty challenged at Michigan. Regarding undergrad rankings, Ross is one place behind Haas overall, and two places ahead for finance. Agree about the cost question. But UM gives FA to OOS students, not so much at Cal. So that may be why UM and Swat are more affordable. If Berkeley is your “dream school”, UM is much more like it than Swarthmore.
@camrun@wayneandgarth
I am not instate for Michigan or Cal. But since I come from a low-income family, Michigan gave me pretty good financial aid, so the cost per year is only around 9K. Berkeley doesn’t give need-based aid to out of state students, so I basically got no aid from them.
For economics specifically, including consortium options, these analyses can be useful (from IDEAS): “Economics Departments at Liberal Arts Colleges”; “US Economics Departments.”
“I’ve looked at the official Michigan school profile and also my school’s naviance report, and the average SAT and GPA of enrolled students are all lower than mine (2300+ and 4.0).”
The average is lower (agreed), so, congratulations, there are only 7,000 kids (the upper quartile, given your scores and grades) with better scores and grades. Some might consider getting elite grades in a context like that a bit daunting, but I admire your gusto.
As to Michigan and your interest in actuarial science, Michigan has a VERY strong presence in insurance and superlative math programs (more or less on par with Berkeley). I don’t know where the programs are today, but 20 years ago, the current C-level officers of a number of insurance companies were at Michigan.
“The poster above says forget about Cal, but Cal is overall ranked a better education than Michigan (use any source), and Haas is ranked better than Ross for business.”
camrun, just because Cal is ranked a few spots higher than Michigan does not make it better. A university should be ranked 20-30 spots higher to be considered better. Anything less can be attributed to methodology rather than quality. Very few people would agree that Cal is a better university than Michigan in any significant way. Both universities are considered elite according to academe.
As for Haas vs Ross, the only source I consider usually has both ranked between #2 and #4, so you are incorrect in your assertion that Haas is better than Ross. They are identical. Saying that Haas is better than Stern is like saying that Booth is better than Kellogg. There is no difference between #2 and #10, two programs ranked among the top 4. And the OP specifically said he is interested in finance, for which Ross is actually better than Haas. Major investment banks hire close to 100 Ross students annually, while they barely even look at Haas.
@littlehappy Don’t think that an Economics degree from Swarthmore limits you in any way in terms of job opportunity or MBA programs for graduate study. Swarthmore is very highly regarded on Wall Street and any other area of business. You can do anything with that degree that you can with a degree from Ross or Haas.
In terms of graduate school, Swarthmore would, arguably, be the better option. Applicants from top liberal arts colleges with economics degrees are extremely competitive in top MBA programs.
Sounds like you have multiple incredible options. Don’t worry yourself about which of the very very very best you pick. All will more than meet your needs.
socal321, do you have evidence that Swarthmore is highly regarded on Wall Street. In my experience, Swarthmore isn’t really a target. Furthermore, I do not see any evidence that Swarthmore is a better option for graduate school admissions, although I can certainly agree that students at Swarthmore are not at a disadvantage when it comes to graduate admissions.
So, when it comes to job placement, I would have to say Ross > Swarthmore. When it comes to graduate school placement, particularly MBA, I would say Ross = Swarthmore.
In terms of quantitative admission stats, Berkeley and UMich have comparable ACT/SAT scores and GPAs, where Berkeley accepts slightly more applicants on the lower end for test scores but higher GPAs (could also be bias to California schools vs Michigan schools). UMich isn’t too far off behind Swarthmore, which is impressive considering the size difference.
Get ready for your ego to be shattered. The math majors literally have the lowest GPA average among all undergraduate programs. Keep in mind that this is already a self-selected.
But if you only do Ross, then odds are you won’t be struggling to pass.
@Alexandre I wasn’t denigrating Ross or comparing it to Swarthmore. Ross is an excellent business school with a great placement record. I was suggesting it could be a mistake to overlook Swarthmore based on the misconception that it is a lesser choice for someone seeking a Wall Street career or admission to a top MBA program.
I have no connection to Swarthmore, but I do know it is one of the most rigorous and respected colleges in the country. A LinkedIn search shows Swarthmore well represented on Wall Street. However, because it is a smaller school graduating about 75 economics majors each year, you have to look at a group of top liberal arts colleges to see the actual impact of an economics degree from a top liberal arts college.
As far as MBA programs, in addition to relevant work experience, admissions offices look for highly intelligent graduates of rigorous academic programs - most of whom did not study business as undergraduates. The most represented undergraduate degree of a Harvard Business School class is economics, many from liberal arts colleges. After that the combined business related fields are about equal to the combined engineering and science fields. (I didn’t do a detailed count, but by eyeballing it, economics is by far the most represented undergraduate major.)
Bottom line - whether you go to Ross, Haas, Stern, Wharton, Mendoza, Kelley or Amherst, Williams, Middlebury, Swarthmore, Colby, Hamilton - if you have high grades, you will have a bright future whatever path you choose whether it is Wall Street or Main Street. Low grades at any of those schools will make the going tough - bulge bracket firms hire the top graduates.
Berkeley is in financial trouble, Michigan seems to be getting wealthier and is expanding a lot of its programs and resources. Michigan Ross is probably the easiest way to go into financial services - the oncampus recruiting is phenomenal. Swarthmore is a great LAC, but I believe Williams and Amherst match/beat it for on campus recruiting for financial services.
@Alexandre, while I don’t dispute that Ross likely has the best pipeline to IB of the schools being discussed here, is that 100 BBAs going to investment banks? Just wondering… or are there MBAs in that number as well.
