<p>“How about we see one another as people, as opposed to your horrific view that people are merely representatives of the average of their skin color?”</p>
<p>Absolutely agree. That is why we should get rid of AA, so people will be judged as individuals.</p>
<p>Even assuming unlimited fee waivers and perfect information in poor school systems about them, this hardly makes up for the advantages enjoyed by upper middle class and wealthy kids in terms of tutoring and school systems. Also, I suspect there are informational barriers re fee waivers given the poor counseling in many mediocre school districts.</p>
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THe request for the President’s school records is perhaps the most ridiculous stunt I have ever heard of. And believe me, I am no fan of the President.</p>
<p>THe schools say directly they are looking to enroll the future leaders of the country and the world. Irrespective of his SAT scores, it is undeniable that they picked someone meeting those goals when they admitted the young Obama. If the qualification was to enroll a future historical figure, then the current reality bears out that ipso facto he was qualified for admission. By those standards, far more qualified than virtually every other student with a perfect verbal score on their exam.</p>
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<p>In terms of actual prerequisite knowledge from high school courses (non-AP) needed for college courses, we can see:</p>
<ul>
<li>math: good precalculus course needed for calculus in college</li>
<li>English: good high school English needed for college freshman writing courses</li>
<li>foreign language: good high school courses can allow placement in college courses more advanced than the beginner ones</li>
<li>science: often the high school course in chemistry or physics is a recommended prerequisite for the college course in chemistry or physics</li>
</ul>
<p>But it does not look like other subjects like history, economics, psychology, sociology, philosophy, computer science, etc. typically have high school prerequisites in terms of course material, although rigorous high school course work in general can help prepare a student for the rigors of college course work.</p>
<p>Agree that people are much more than their skin color. Unfortunately for decades and decades many in this country did not understand that and this has contributed to vast disparities in wealth/opportunities that has led to de facto segregation in many top public school districts and private schools. </p>
<p>Plus, why single out AA? What about all preferences for legacies, athletes, geographic regions etc. Colleges have their own institutional priorities and NO COLLEGE OR UNIVERSITY picks a class solely based upon the most meritorious academic candidates.</p>
<p>@ucb: Then why do so many international students with SORELY lacking English skills get into “top” universities? Wouldn’t a good command of the English language be something all students should have in American universities, regardless of their abilities with analytical subjects like math or science?</p>
<p>muckdogs, several of us have been asking this question for pages. Apparently, what I’m gleaning from the responses posted by at least for some of these people, athletic preferences are ok because there is a skill associated with the preference. Legacy and geographic preferences are ok because these can be changed. Race is a characteristic that has no inherent value and shouldn’t be “rewarded.” </p>
<p>It doesn’t make sense to me either.</p>
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<p>But race is a part of what an individual is. It’s a part of our experience, and a key one. Colleges aren’t promoting diversity because they want a literal rainbow of faces, they want the ideas and experiences that come with different skin colors, nationalities, religions.</p>
<p>“It’s like walking into a Calculus course before you even learn Algebra. You don’t have the conceptual tools to perform.”</p>
<p>Funny, that’s pretty close to what I did. I failed all my high school math courses from trigonometry on, and then took two years off after high school, so when I started college calculus at Bryn Mawr, I hadn’t passed a math course since plane geometry 4.5 years earlier. I set the curve on the first test and finished the course with an A-minus. It’s very hard to predict how a motivated individual will perform under pressure. Turns out you can soak up all the trig and logarithms you need to pass calculus during calculus if you need to.</p>
<p>“absent other information, when an observer sees an Asian and a White from that university, the observer will be justified in thinking that it is more likely that the Asian student is more qualified than the White student.”</p>
<p>Yet only racist people do this. Healthy people (I don’t claim any of us are free of racism) seek that other information if they need to judge someone’s abilities. If you walk around a college campus guessing people’s SAT scores based on their skin color, the problem is not the admissions system, it’s you.</p>
<p>“That is why we should get rid of AA, so people will be judged as individuals.”</p>
<p>Right, because prejudice was born along with AA! That’s the only time in our society when people are judged by their race instead of as individuals. All other racial prejudice is dead. Seriously? If you think AA is at the root of American racism, you need a history lesson.</p>
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<p>I’d rather have a strong public school system.</p>
<p>Yes, I would prefer to have a strong public school system, too. But the status quo is not helping the schools to improve. Something needs to shake up the system.</p>
<p>Agree. But vouchers are not the answer, especially if they take scarce public money from already-strapped schools and allow students from wealthy districts to use them. And they’re even worse if they support religious schools.</p>
<p>Vouchers could be limited to low income families and rules could be set to determine school eligibility. </p>
<p>Is it the word “vouchers” that get people upset? What if kids simply had school choice? Right now the poor kids have no choice but the local public schools. The local public schools are in a straightjacket because of the teachers unions.</p>
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<p>Is this really where your mind goes, NotYourBusiness, when you see a white and Asian duo walking around on a campus? And when you see a white and black student hanging out? Good heavens, how your mind must reel when you see two Asian students or two white students together! What do your probabilistic calculations tell you then? </p>
<p>Do you have any idea of the kind of probabilistic calculations you invite people to do based on your posts? The consistency of your pronouncements suggests to me that you probably have a stunted, limited view of humankind. Maybe you think you’re talking about hypotheticals. But recall that there are people of all races on this thread.</p>
<p>I hope all of us can agree that, whether we favor AA or not, that poor URMs need better education at the K-12 level to prepare them for college.</p>
<p>**What initiatives would you suggest to help kids to be better prepared? **
I hope we can have a CONSTRUCTIVE dialogue.</p>
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<p>Someone asked what GMT is referring to here. It is post #545 .</p>
<p>Am I the only one on this board who started college with such shaky nerves that I believed everyone I encountered was smarter, more worldly, more socially poised, more athletic, more everything good than me? It’s hard for me to imagine 17 or 18 year olds evaluating peers to size up their qualifications. It’s more than racist, it’s practically misanthropic. </p>
<p>Perhaps it’s a matter of youth though. I don’t know. My husband and I attended a 15th year college reunion that the speaker opened with the question, “how many of you think you’d get in here today?” EVERY LAST ONE OF US shook our heads and laughed.</p>
<p>Free day care for needy families (many thousands of dollars above the poverty line).</p>
<p>Better day cares in general (I’m talkin good ol’ market regulation).</p>
<p>Less money for national defense (which should clearly be made more efficient), more for nation’s public schools that present science-based plans for improvement.</p>
<p>Someone who actually knows a thing about educational policy.</p>
<p>sseamom,</p>
<p>Please do not let this discussion change where your child applies. If anything, the Ivies are where AA has the least effect as they can reach from the best pool. Your child sounds like she may belong there. </p>
<p>Having said that, I honestly believe yours is a case where AA has done harm. The reality is that if you give some members of a group an advantage based upon their race, you cannot blame others for wondering if a particular person of that race would have earned that position otherwise.</p>
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<p>Well then that URM kid will be in good company, questioned along with all the musicians, athletes, kids-from-N-Dakota, club presidents, business founders, book writers, dedicated to charity work-ers and whatnot on campus.</p>