MIT: The AP Under Fire

Parents Forum
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<p>runnersmom, kudos to your hs., but in the wider scheme of things, Marian makes a good point - most schools do not have the resources to create or offer rigorous college prep. courses that can easily take the place of AP courses. (To add to Marian’s latest comment - I agree that the resources they do have most likely can be better used.) Case in point, Scarsdale HS because this school does offer a panoply of excellent upper level courses - only one of which is AP. </p>

<p>epiphany, exactly - it is this shift from motivation to “place out” to motivation for admissions reasons that blurs the issues here. This is why I agree with Marian’s assessment that the message is not not to take AP courses. Nonetheless, there are a great many students who are encouraged to take AP exams (here, I am making a distinction between the exam and the course) and one of the prime reasons is for good old “advanced placement” - in Texas, for example, there is an incentive program that pays $100 to students to take the test, since most Texas colleges and universities will give students college credit for AP courses if they score 3 or higher. Same trend can be observed in other states, including NJ and NY so that increasing larger numbers of high school students tackle not just college-level material but go on to take the test - in order to earn college course credit. If colleges, especially highly selective, elites opt to create policy that, defacto, sends the clear message that their departments do not honor the AP exam (even for scores of 4 and 5) for intro level placement and choose to give their own placement test in lieu of the AP, then I do wonder if a message will be sent to the effect that it is not necessary to load up on APs exams. Of course, I do realize that they are quite a number of motivated, interested students out there who do want to take the AP exam just to rise to the challenge and I do not think that that is at issue here.</p>

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<p>As a new member who has spent the past month reading and learning from this site, I am somewhat reluctant to post. I must admit to feeling a bit intimidated by the knowledge of the members.</p>

<p>However, that said, perhaps I can contribute something to this discussion.</p>

<p>I think the decision regarding allowing students to utilize AP courses to place out of college courses is a very individualized one. It depends on the strength of the highschool course/teacher, the scope/rigor of the equivalent college course and the personality of the student.</p>

<p>For MIT to consider making all students repeat their AP courses, except AP calculus, concerns me. I happen to have a son who detests repetition. While I think he will forego credit for english/composition courses, I doubt that he would choose to repeat many others. </p>

<p>I must admit to being a bit confused by MIT’s reasons for "reevaluting their practice of accepting these credits. </p>

<p>“Within MIT, the issue has to do practically speaking from moving from a highly prescribed curriculum to one with choice,” said Charles Stewart III, another committee member, who is a professor of political science and associate dean of humanities, arts and social sciences. “What does it mean to say you can graduate from MIT without having taken X,” with X now being any number of potential subject areas."</p>

<p>Does this mean that MIT is considering implementing a “core curriculum”? Without such a “core”, students may or may not take X - regardless of AP credit.</p>

<p>“But the committee says that there is “a growing body of evidence” that students who earn top AP scores and place out of institute introductory courses ending up having “difficulty” when taking the next course.” </p>

<p>Hmmm. The same has been said by many critics of MIT’s decision to implement the “freshman year - pass/fail sytem”. It seems as if a student “barely passes” an introductory college class, they might very well end up having “difficulty” in the next course. But, I haven’t heard MIT speak of eliminating the P/F program.</p>

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Say what? What program are you talking about?</p>

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<p>Agree with all of you who advisie against taking advanced standing. There are, however, a few exceptions. Students who do well in AP Calculus should definitely be placed out and go on to multi-variable calculus or linear algebra. This is because calculus is a well-defined and very narrowly focused subject. There is no reason to believe that a student can learn more once a student has mastered it. Many colleges offer an alternate introductory chemistry course for those who had done well in AP Chem but it is an introductory chem course nonetheless. Chem majors usually benefit from such such courses, which often give a better focus on physical chemistry. I would never advise skipping intro biol with AP standing. A good introductory college biol course is taught at a much more advanced level and usually requires first year chemistry as a prerequisite. </p>

<p>As for humanities and social sciences, most of us can still learn more of the basics even after college.</p>

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<p>reflectivemom, I think that what MIT is saying is that taking the MIT introductory course is not “repeating.” There is sufficient difference between the MIT course and the AP course that kids who take both learn something new at MIT. If this were not true – if the two courses were essentially identical – MIT’s experience of students having a tough time in second-level courses if their only preparation is AP would not have happened.</p>

<p>What I see happening, unfortunately, is that some elite colleges are creating introductory courses so intense that the AP course is almost a prerequisite. You can be sure that at MIT, many, many of the students in “introductory” chemistry, physics, or biology took the AP course in high school and therefore have a high level of preparation. Unfortunately, this can create problems for the kid who did not have the chance to take that AP course.</p>

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<p>If I remember correctly, Caltech provides no placement credit for any AP exam scores. The proposed MIT change amounts to moving closer to that practice. Yet I’ll bet you won’t find very many Caltech matriculants without at least a few AP math and science courses/exams under their belts, some for the “oh look I took the most challenging course load” reason, but many because of the other reasons being listed here, chief among them that the student ran out of other classes to take in math and sciences at their high school.</p>

<p>While I have not taken them myself, the MIT placement tests are the equivalent of the final exam from the course. The AP material is said to prepare you for parts of some of them, but not all. MIT already does not accept AP Chemistry for placement out of the chemistry requirement, and the chem placement test is notorious for having single-digit numbers of students passing it each year. (A table showing number of incoming students taking the ASEs (Advanced Standing Exams) and the percent passing is here. 5.111 is chemistry, 7.012 is biology, and 8.01/8.02 is physics.) Starting next year, they will not accept AP Bio for placement either. From The Tech this Sept.:

For comparison, I’ll also include a link to this table showing the placement figures for the past two incoming MIT classes based on AP scores.</p>

<p>My son took some classes in his first two years at MIT that, nominally, “repeated” subjects he already knew and could have placed out of, in part because he believed he would receive a stronger foundation taking the MIT courses than he did in taking the AP courses. He has not been disappointed with that decision, and is absolutely learning more even in those subjects he was already adept in.</p>

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<p>cur- re: AP incentive program (hope I got this right!)</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.tea.state.tx.us/gted/[/url]”>http://www.tea.state.tx.us/gted/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.tea.state.tx.us/press/pr000823.html[/url]”>http://www.tea.state.tx.us/press/pr000823.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>The $100 goes to the school, not the kid.</p>

<p>I think this program is brilliant. What a great way to bring accountability & incentive to the teaching profession.</p>

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<p>Did anyone ask themselves, “why AP credits are not being given or only given after achieving a very high score on the AP exam?”</p>

<p>At our high school, I have had the opportunity to view many of the AP books used and see many of the AP courses at work. These books are actual college texts used in colleges. and the teaching is usually conducted by the better, more knowledgeable teachers. Even the College Board notes that, “AP courses tend to be more inclusive and not less inclusive.”</p>

<p>When I viewed AP credit acceptances by most state universities, there is widespread credit given for AP course scores of “3” or above, although some schools require a “4.” However, for some private schools such as the ivys and MIT types, AP credit is not as readily available. </p>

<p>My thinking about this difference between state schools and private schools is that private schools may be instituting this policy based on MONEY. After all, if a kid places out of a year of courses, this gives one lest year of tuition for the school. I don’t think it has anything to do with the overall quality of AP exams. In fact, from what I have observed with my daughter, AP courses tend to be more demanding than many college courses.</p>

<p>To me this conclusion means that during the freshmen through sophomore or even junior year, taking AP courses might be preferable to regular courses due to college admission standards and because the student just might get some credit out of it. However, during the senior year, which doesn’t usually count towards college admission unless the student does poorly, the student might be better off taking actual college courses at the nearby college or community college.</p>

<p>Reflectivemom notes," Ithink the decision regarding allowing students to utilize AP courses to place out of college courses is a very individualized one. It depends on the strength of the highschool course/teacher, the scope/rigor of the equivalent college course and the personality of the student.</p>

<p>For MIT to consider making all students repeat their AP courses, except AP calculus, concerns me. I happen to have a son who detests repetition. While I think he will forego credit for english/composition courses, I doubt that he would choose to repeat many others"</p>

<p>Response: I completely agree. Having a student retake a course, even it if has a little more depth seems pointless and counterproducive towards encouraging learning. This is especially true for courses unlrelated towards a student’s major that would satisfy gen ed requirements. I find it unfathomable that colleges don’t recognize this unless the almight dollar speaks louder than educational consciousness.</p>

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<p>“At the Catholic, no frosh or sophs can take APs. Nobody can take two AP sciences at the same time.”</p>

<p>And I really don’t see the point in making arbitrary rules like this. My kid took AP Computer Science as an elective as a freshman. It was his easiest course and he got a 5 on the AP. He took AP Bio as a sophomore because he’d already taken high school level courses in biology, physics and chemistry. That APwas a lot more work, but it was still the right level for him.</p>

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<p>The rules are far from arbitrary. The curriculum is very rich, very intense. The girls don’t need to fill up their schedules with APs to be challenged because a very strong core foundation is taught to everyone, at her appropriate level, as frosh & sophs.</p>

<p>For high honors Chemistry (10th grade,) for example, the teacher recommends girls who aren’t planning to take AP Chem should sit for the SATII at the end of the year. Nobody has scored less than 700. Most over 750. If the school offers challenging courses, they don’t have to be AP.</p>

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<p>At our local high school, this is because the non-AP classes seem to be so easy and populated by kids who are less motivated to learn. What is needed is a middle level of difficulty at our hs, but it doesn’t exist.</p>

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<p>You’re absolutely right, ellenmenope. All kids should be challenged at a level that doesn’t totally overwhelm them. Too many schools have AP or Blackboard Jungle as the only two options.</p>

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<p>I have to disagree, taxguy.</p>

<p>The private colleges that are refusing to accept AP credit in various subjects tend to be highly selective, highly desired institutions. If a student at one of these colleges graduates a year early, the college could simply admit an extra freshman or transfer student to take his place. There are no empty seats at MIT.</p>

<p>I really think it is a matter of rigor and equivalence. Case in point: Cornell (one of the schools that my daughter is applying to and, as it happens, my own alma mater). </p>

<p>If you go on the Cornell Web site, you will see that some departments, such as economics and math, urge students to accept AP credit if they are entitled to it and not to waste their time taking the course over at Cornell. These departments seem to have determined that 1) their introductory course is reasonably equivalent to the AP course, and 2) students who place out of the introductory course on the basis of AP credit and go on to second-level courses do OK. At the same time, other departments, such as chemistry and biology, urge their students to take Cornell’s introductory course even if they have AP credit. They say that in their experience, the Cornell introductory courses in these subjects are more rigorous than AP and that students who try to take second-level courses with AP as their only background do not tend to do well. And, at the same time, the foreign language departments at Cornell take a third approach. They seem to be willing to place students out of introductory courses but don’t trust the AP test. They give credit on the basis of AP but make all of their placement decisions based on their own placement test rather than AP scores.</p>

<p>I doubt that financial considerations have anything to do with the very different approaches to this question taken by different departments at the same university. I think that there is a true difference in whether introductory courses in particular departments are or are not equivalent to AP.</p>

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<p>Asteriskea…"Case in point, Scarsdale HS because this school does offer a panoply of excellent upper level courses - only one of which is AP. "</p>

<p>Actually, we live in Scarsdale and my kids have gone to Scarsdale HS. I’m not sure what classes you are referring to. The “5” level classes at SHS are predominantly the AP classes, and those are the highest level classes any student can take. It is true that in math and science there are a very few Honors level (“4”) classes for the kids who don’t qualify for AP science or math senior year, but generally speaking the track is that if you are in honors English or language or history, you end up in AP as a senior and there is nothing else. </p>

<p>This is exactly the reason the District is contemplating eliminating AP classes. AND we realize that it would not be feasible for every district, but many (including me) believe it would be beneficial for ours. And all students would be eligible to take the AP exams, regardless of having taking an “AP” course.</p>

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<p>But don’t plenty of kids take APs just to fill a core requirement they don’t want to study further? A kid who is strong in math, but with plans to study something in the humanities, takes AP Calc just to get math “over with” and have more college time to explore his interest in depth, or perhaps double major. Or take graduate level courses that can be applied to an advanced degree. I think these are great reasons for APs.</p>

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<p>runnersmom, thanks for dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s. I have friends with kids who live in Scarsdale and as a result have a high opinion of the school- from the hs web site, I did get the impression that the high school offered quite a number of solid and interesting course offerings with different tracked sections - (enough, anyway to make poor me drool). Interesting that there are no other options come senior year - all roads seem to lead to Rome, or in this case to the AP.</p>

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<p>I would point out that colleges do see the AP results taken early in the HS career, and I imagine they are at least somewhat impressed by 5s accrued in tests taken the Freshman & Sophomore years.</p>

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<p>My son’s public high school DOES offer challenging non-AP electives, including Organic Chemistry, Biochemistry, Astronomy, and a great course called Contemporary Conflicts which focuses on what’s hot right now (this fall they’re doing South American elections). Except for a few kids who are really trying to accumulate college credit, these are probably more popular than the AP classes, and more work, too, not less.</p>

<p>When I was in high school, we didn’t have any courses with the “AP” trademark attached. I took the toughest calculus course available, then took the AP test; that was it. The only class I had which explicitly followed an AP-created curriculum was French 5, but that was because the AP French Literature test used a perfectly good, down-the-middle list of classics of French literature, and it would have been impossible to take the test without reading the stuff they told you to (lots of substantive questions on specific works). But I didn’t take that many AP tests – only the ones that were in areas where I knew I wanted either to skip introductory levels in college (like French) or where I knew I wanted to skip them altogether in college (Calculus).</p>

<p>A word of praise for the French Literature AP test: One of the happiest moments of my entire life was standing in line in the hallway outside the French Department DUS’s office at the beginning of my freshman year, waiting to be interviewed for permission to take a real French literature course. (It turned out that AP credit wasn’t automatic.) Everyone had taken exactly the same course and read exactly the same books the year before. It was amazing: all these smart kids I had never met, and we had a really substantial body of somewhat arcane knowledge in common. I thought I was in Heaven.</p>

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<p>Taxguy:</p>

<p>HYPS allow Advanced Standing–it is not a matter of money. Most of those who are eligible for AS do not use that option. Many LACs, however, including the one that S1 attended do not allow Advanced Standing. And only 2 AP credits could be used to place into more advanced classes in a subject.</p>

<p>MIT’s study is a variation of one conducted at Harvard about ten years ago. 2 or 3 departments found that students who had achieved a 4 on the AP did more poorly in the next level of class than students who had taken the introductorysemester-length class in the subject at Harvard. However, students who had achieved a 5 did as well. On that basis, it was decided to accept only scores of 5.
Students who are prospective Bio majors are required to take Intro Bio no matter what score they achieve on the AP exam; however, a score of 5 on the AP qualifies for credit for the purpose of securing Advanced Standing.
As for APs in the humanities and social studies, college profs have had reservations for many years. Wiliam Lichten of Yale actually did a study showing that the rigor of the AP-English curriculum had been greatly diluted with the influx of students into that course.
<a href=“http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v8n29.html[/url]”>http://epaa.asu.edu/epaa/v8n29.html&lt;/a&gt;
<a href=“http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/00-06-12-02.all.html[/url]”>http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/00-06-12-02.all.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;