MIT: The AP Under Fire

Parents Forum
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<p>Inside Higher ed article: “When Knowledge Overtakes a Core” : MIT proposed reforms take on the issue of the core and the use of AP as a means to place out of introductory college courses - this would include ending the use of Advanced Placement credit to place out of requirements except for calculus:</p>

<p>"After two years of study, a faculty panel proposed Friday that the Massachusetts Institute of Technology adopt major changes in undergraduate education. </p>

<p>MIT’s reforms, if adopted, would represent the most significant overhaul of its curriculum in decades. The changes could be influential far beyond Cambridge, given the institute’s prominence in science and engineering education. And they come at a time that a number of colleges are rethinking what students should be required to learn. A faculty panel at Harvard University this month unveiled a plan to change general education. And across the country, the California Community Colleges last month upped the mathematics requirements for all students…</p>

<p>“Within MIT, the issue has to do practically speaking from moving from a highly prescribed curriculum to one with choice,” said Charles Stewart III, another committee member, who is a professor of political science and associate dean of humanities, arts and social sciences. “What does it mean to say you can graduate from MIT without having taken X,” with X now being any number of potential subject areas.“”</p>

<p>"The committee also enters the growing debate nationally about AP credit — and suggests a change in MIT’s policy of letting individual departments decide whether or not to let students count AP credit toward various requirements. The committee notes that MIT historically has recognized that some students benefit from advancing rapidly in their educations, in part through the use of AP credit. But the committee says that there is “a growing body of evidence” that students who earn top AP scores and place out of institute introductory courses ending up having “difficulty” when taking the next course. The exception to this is calculus, where a top score does typically indicate that a student is prepared for the next course at MIT.</p>

<p>As a result, the committee wants MIT to accept only calculus scores in the future, although it suggests that MIT-created tests could be used to grant credit in other subjects.</p>

<p>In the non-science fields, MIT is also reconsidering the role of introducing freshmen to areas of knowledge. The institute is largely leaving in place a system in which students must take courses from the arts, humanities and social sciences and then complete a sequence of courses in one area (sort of a minor)."</p>

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<p>The question remains: how much will APs count in admissions?
The fact that it takes only 4 APs to gain Advanced Standing at Harvard does not deter aspiring high schoolers from taking many more “so as to look good to adcoms.”
Another question is: do high schools have alternatives to offer to students who wish to take more challenging classes than College Prep?</p>

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<p>Marite, excellent questions and important ones since it does not seem to me that the AP exam as a device to boost admissions chances is going to lose its allure any time soon - either for adcoms or high school guidance counselors. If passed, just how much will the proposed MIT reforms urge further re-thinking about the AP and set into motion changes that would end the abuse of the AP? As it stands now, the lines of the debate are not at all clear since many high schools rely on the AP to provide the foundation for their college prep. coursework. The CB is working hard in this regard. Not surprising then to read that “more high school students than ever are seeking out homework-heavy Advanced Placement courses, all the better to beef up their college applications.” Nonetheless, if more colleges chose not to accept AP credit as a means to “place out” of intro courses then, for some students, much of the incentive to take the AP exam is gone.</p>

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<p>The national debate about the use and abuse of the AP does indeed rage on and, FWIW (from the same article quoted above): </p>

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<p><a href=“http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzAwNTQ4NyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTQ=[/url]”>http://www.northjersey.com/page.php?qstr=eXJpcnk3ZjczN2Y3dnFlZUVFeXk2NSZmZ2JlbDdmN3ZxZWVFRXl5NzAwNTQ4NyZ5cmlyeTdmNzE3Zjd2cWVlRUV5eTQ=&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p><a href=“http://www.northjersey.com/static/news/images/bythenumbers_101206.jpg[/url]”>http://www.northjersey.com/static/news/images/bythenumbers_101206.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>It sounds to me as though this situation could be specific to MIT.</p>

<p>MIT and a few other elite tech schools are known for having extremely challenging introductory courses in the sciences. AP courses are not and probably should not be taught at the same level. So it makes sense to not allow students to use them as a substitute, for fear of allowing underprepared students into second-level courses.</p>

<p>Whether the same logic should apply to more typical colleges, where the introductory courses may indeed by at roughly the same level as AP courses, is questionable.</p>

<p>Also, placing out of college courses is only one of several motivations students have for taking APs. Kids also take them to demonstrate their ability and willingness to take courses that involve a lot of work, to improve their preparation for college work in a subject (even if they don’t place out of anything), and because they have used up the less-than-AP resources at their high schools.</p>

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<p>I believe that at HYPS, where Advanced Standing is available, a majority of eligible students choose not to exercise the option. However, they use their scores to place out of particular requirements or to take more advanced classes in the subject. At Harvard, a student with a 5 on the BC Calc exam is still required to take a math placement test. However, the same student is allowed to take a more challenging version of introductory Physics.</p>

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<p>As anyone knows who has read any of my posts, I am not a big fan of AP. My son is going to wind up with 9 AP (and one IB) tests taken by the time he leaves HS. Why? </p>

<p>– That’s where the good teachers are.
– That’s where the good students are.
– He wants that “most challenging” curriculum tag.</p>

<p>If he goes to the kind of college I hope he does, I would heavily discourage him from taking Advanced Standing. If you have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to study at a great institution, why give up part of it? But for many of his classmates, the economic value of AP credit in avoiding one or more semesters of college tuition is very significant.</p>

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<p>Marian–</p>

<p>Your last comment is probably the best reason many kids take APs–because the regular coursework would be too easy, and they would be in with the mass of kids who aren’t as motivated to learn as they are.</p>

<p>I agree that at some colleges the introductory coursework is at a level above the AP, still at some colleges students report their HS AP courses were harder. It all depends.</p>

<p>At an info session, MIT’s rep responded with surprise to the AP question with “Why would you want to miss out on taking Calculus at MIT?” Shows where they’re at, I guess.</p>

<p>In 2001, at least, Columbia didn’t accept AP English (or what at the time was the SAT II Writing test either) but required students to pass their own writing test. My daughter was proud to pass it and show them her HS had prepared her well.</p>

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<p>JHS:</p>

<p>My sentiments, exactly. And that’s why so many students do not make use of the Advanced Standing option.</p>

<p>Mommusic: I found that, at Harvard, AP-English language is given only half credit. Anyway, all students have to take Expository Writing.</p>

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I don’t know where this line would be. D was counseled strenuously NOT to use her AP’s to avoid introductory science classes at Rhodes. She agreed. She also chose herself not to use her AP Lit to skip the first year composition course as she felt her writing was not up to her standards (although she tested very well). 9 weeks (or so) in and she is killing the science courses (top grades in both classes) but is working very hard to do so. Comp? Not the same story. LOL. It’s kicking her rear. (Tough prof). Her “Search” course- intensive reading, writing, thinking History of Civilization-y type thing- takes constant diligence. </p>

<p>So, I don’t know where these “more typical colleges” start. I think one would be incorrect in assuming that a lower ranked but still very rigorous school’s introductory classes are at a lower level. At least at this one school.</p>

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<p>How can we be expected to figure out what colleges want? I called 10 different admissions offices last week. Only 3 of them said they wanted official AP score reports sent, but a few of the others said the GC could put them on the letter of rec. This was AFTER they said they didn’t use them as part of the admissions decision, but only for determining credit after acceptance. Why should the GC report them if the college doesn’t look at them? All 10 of these colleges had told us, in no uncertain terms, that a successful applicant would be expected to take the most rigorous coursework available, causing my son to take AP Calculus and Advanced Topics in Pysics and Chemistry in his senior year when he would far rather have taken more humanities courses. And now they don’t really care about the scores??? Of course, they’ll see grades for the AP courses on the HS transcript, but I would have thought the AP scores would be a more objective measure, due to possible inflation of HS grades. I’m annoyed.</p>

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<p>curmudgeon, it sounds as though your daughter was counseled very well. That’s great.</p>

<p>bethievt, no matter what happens – whether you send official score reports or not – the colleges your son is applying to won’t see the scores from AP tests taken during senior year as part of the admissions process. The score reports don’t come out until July – after HS graduation and long after college acceptances come out.</p>

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<p>Curmudgeon:</p>

<p>Just as Mark Twain located Man as “a little lower than the angels, and a little higher than the French”, it seems the AP line is a little lower than Rhodes, and a little higher than, say, one of the satellite Penn State campuses.</p>

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<p>Well, as many commented on in a similiar thread a few weeks ago, our HS is contemplating eliminating AP courses in favor of challenging, rigorous advanced classes developed by local faculty in coordination with college peer review of the content. Our administration and faculty believe that the current practise of seniors (only 2 AP’s available to juniors and none to freshmen and sophomores) taking up to 6 AP classes solely to say they are taking the “most challenging curriculum available”, is not in the best interests of these students academically and exists only because of the current state of college admissions. We have some wonderful faculty members who have requested not to teach APs in favor of “lesser” level classes because they can have input and flexibility in the curriculum. There is certainly much discussion in our community about this step, and our counseling department has done an extensive study of the 100 colleges our kids most often apply to in order to ascertain if such a move would impact our students negatively in the college admissions process. Of the schools that replied to the survey (up to 85), all agreed that if done well (which they assumed our district would do), such a move away from offering AP courses would not impact our students when appplying. However, even our teachers agree that the AP curriculum in math is a good one and they would just be tweaking it, whereas the humanities faculty and the hard science faculty believe that they can develop challenging, rigorous courses that will allow more depth and less breadth in the subject areas covered. As the parent of 2 graduates of our district (currently at top 15 unis) and a senior, I have whole heartedly supported this notion for the past six years since it was first raised. My kids took classes they had no interest in (but they qualified for) solely to “play the game” and I think high school would have been a much richer academic experience if they had been allowed to challenge themselves in more interesting classes. I tried to convince them to follow less traditional paths, but the writing was, at least they believed, on the wall. If you want the selective schools, you need to take those classes. If that option didn’t exist, I suspect all the kids would find topics in those areas that interested them and classes they wanted to take. Sometimes it’s not enough to just advise them…many kids who are at this level know the score and push themselves, in many cases, to do what they think they need to do, whether that is true or not. By eliminating the AP option and substituting other high level classes with more interesting content, we think we can continue to challenge our kids in a very meaningful way without sacrificing college admissions statistics.</p>

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<p>“Nonetheless, if more colleges chose not to accept AP credit as a means to “place out” of intro courses then, for some students, much of the incentive to take the AP exam is gone.”</p>

<p>I wonder, *. The shift from a motivation to place out, to a motivation for admissions reasons, occurred some time ago. Even if U’s denied all placing out, I really do think that the perception (& often the reality, as JHS notes) is that AP = “most challenging h.s. curriculum,” which continues to be what almost every higher institution claims they want in their applicants.</p>

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<p>We cross-posted, runnersmom. Three cheers for your h.s.! And non-AP’s are not necessarily “lesser-level,” of course. They can be actually more college-like in their very challenge. The few courses like this our h.s. offers are heavy on research, discussion, and writing – the 3 strands most required in demanding colleges, including in core courses such as Columbia, St. John’s, Chicago – in precepts or sections such as at HYP, & in seminars at any rigorous college/U.</p>

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<p>Top high schools and top school districts may be able to create some advanced courses of greater educational merit than AP, but I doubt that the average district can do so. For many high school students, AP or IB courses are the most rigorous courses available. </p>

<p>Besides, I don’t think that the message that MIT intends to send to applicants is “You should not take AP courses.” I also don’t think they mean to say, “If you go to a high school where the most rigorous courses available are AP courses, rather than something special designed by your high school, you’re screwed in terms of MIT admissions.” All they are saying is, “We’ve found that MIT students do better in MIT second-level courses if they take MIT introductory courses, regardless of whether they have taken an AP course in the same subject. Given this, we think it is in our students’ best interest not to give AP credit.”</p>

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<p>Great quote, JHS. But I think the line for AP that is most important is the one at the high schools. AP, if administered well, is a wonderful thing. I compare the AP programs at my town school and my d’s Catholic, and they are worlds apart. At the Catholic, no frosh or sophs can take APs. Nobody can take two AP sciences at the same time. There is a selection of challenging courses beyond the AP level, such as organic chemistry and independent study options. Everyone must take the AP exam in May & there is a strict entrace requirment for every course. APUSH, for example, builds on the sophomore high honors history course. The instruction is quite deep, not just wide. Over 90% pass, with most scores of 4 or 5. In addition to AP, all core courses are offered at college prep, honors, and high honors levels, so the girls are properly challenged without being overwhelmed. </p>

<p>My town h.s. offers over 20 APs and a small handful of sophomores are skipping lunch or taking 0 period classes to fit them in. (These are primarily the Asian kids, bu the way.) Most kids don’t even take the exams, and passing rates are awful. The courses are simply an escape from the rowdy, non-motivated kids in the school, so they can’t be taught as true college level courses. Entrance to the APs is not restricted to top students. The mayor’s daughtr and the town attorney’s son will be taking up a seat, regardless of ability or work ethic. As the state senator’s dim-witted cousin is likely the teacher, not a heck of a lot gets done. Top students have to self-study to pass, thus missing out on the lively discourse that intro level college courses are supposed to teach kids to participate in. Not to mention the insights of a brilliant professor.</p>

<p>So I’m pretty sure that girls who did well in APUSH at my d’s school are ready to move on to Jeffersonian Democracy, or some such higher level course. The kids from my town h.s. would be much better served repeating the intro course at the college.</p>

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<p>Note also that students can still place out of the intro classes by taking a placement test at MIT. Does anyone know how the syllabus for these tests will compare to the AP curriculum?</p>

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<p>Two thoughts:</p>

<p>1) From what I gather from my daughter, Brown, unlike Rhodes and MIT, seems to actively encourage students to use their AP credits and to skip the introductory classes in favor of beginning with more advanced ones. I know that my daughter was initially hesitant to use her AP Biology placement, she thought she might benefit from taking Brown’s introductory course and solidifying her knowledge base before moving on. Her advisor as well as a professor in the department both advised her to sign up for an upper level class that particularly interested her instead. So far it has been challenging, but manageable and she is really enjoying the class. Her take is that the introductory classes ask you to know something about everything where this class asks you to know everything about something and she is enjoying learning deeply more than learning broadly.</p>

<p>2) Marian wrote

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<p>I heartily agree with this. I don’t think that our district has the resources to create these better classes. For us the AP program, while not perfect, is as good at it is going to get and eliminating it would result it a substantially weaker, not stronger, educational experience.</p>

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<p>And if they did have the resources, a very good argument could be made that these resources should be devoted to something else.</p>