greenwitch, we had someone like that in my office. She had a young adopted Chinese daughter who was an amputee and thus had a handicapped-parking permit for when she had to drive her places. She was smug and self-righteous and, surprisingly, was known to her immediate colleagues as being prone to racist comments. Every day she parked in the handicapped spot at our office despite having no physical disabilities of her own.
As they say in HR speak, “She is no longer with the company.”
dstark, most of the time, if I drive over the speed limit I am not caught. I almost “never have a problem.” But do I freak out if I get a speeding ticket? Of course not.
The mom is thinking it is a pain to lug a special seat around? If that was her thinking, which I know you are speculating, it would be very selfish as a mother, not to mention irresponsible.
So now you all think that she knew full well that there was a rigid rule (despite her recent previous experience) that would likely prevent them from flying, but decided to go ahead anyway?
FAA rules are, rules. To say that this Short Hills mom of 4 didn’t know that the age limit for a lap child is 2 is laughable.
Yes. I think she is used to getting what she wants, rules or no rules. It helps to be affluent and aggressive. Or at least it did for her while it lasted.
We have been told on this thread that we don’t know what happened on this plane.
I would like to add…we also don’t know what really happened on the flight to the DR two weeks prior. For all we know…the child was in the seat next to the parent, strapped in just as she was for this flight. We don’t know.
poor horse…
I think the issue is, as others have said, that the family was used to being treated a certain way with the child. The little girl is small, so there were probably many times that the FAs just assumed that she was under two, so it might have never come up. I’ve flown with some things not in the plastic bags as they should be and luggage over the size it should have been to be carried on, and not gotten called on it. But that doesn’t mean that if I am caught, that the fact that I got away with it in the past, means that I get a pass. Could happen. Might not. I think that the mom was so used to not getting a second glance with the seating situation that when it arose,she got insulted and upset.
The other thing that I think that might have been an issue was that they were sitting in upgrades seats. If they had been sitting in steerage with a kid on their laps, it might not have caught anyone’s attention. But when one sits in first class, business class, or whatever and there is a child on your lap, that can be an extra flag. It would be a flag if there is an empty seat next to the parent for the child and she isn’t in it, and it could equally be a flag if there is no seat for the child. A request for the boarding pass for the child (to check age or whatever) that showed the child’s seat to be elsewhere could have started the whole thing.
A confession: in the days of yore, I used to always bring my little on the planes on my lap as long as I could get away with it, even beyond age two. Dangerous, unethical, etc, but many of us did so. One of mine was small enough that he looked like he was two long past his age, and we did take advantage of that. His younger brother was a big fellow and was questioned about his age even before he reached two. But that used to be something many of us did. With just one child, I used to drive 12 hours one way to check on my mother with a baby in the car. Leave on Friday, come back on Sunday, with sometimes an extra day if I could manage it, which was not a safe situation either, driving that distance alone with a child. Couldn’t afford the airfare then. When we finally could, there was another child and he went on my lap for many years when we traveled. I would not do it now, nor would I advise it, but the reason for doing it was that I felt that the risk of a serious problem was small enough that I was willing to take it. The same reason the airlines permit this for children under two. it really doesn’t matter if the kid is under or over two from a safety perspective, but the size is what counts.
I don’t have any rancor for the mother and I don’t think she was trying to sham the airline. She’d just been used to doing things that way witht he child up to the point that she felt she as entitled to the exception and that it was unreasonable for the FA to refuse to let her do it again. There were a number of FAs involved, and one can see that only one out of the four was looking at it as an issue. Though that one was right–it was regulation, it leads to resentment when expectations are broken that way. What the captain , the airline, the FA, all should have done, was gently explain to the woman, that the problem was that the others had not enforced the airline’s regulations in the past, which happens with a lot of thing, but that the rules were in fact as stated, and apologize for the expectations that were developed from not enforcing these rules more stringently in the past. Once the case was identified as a breach of rules with a possible safety issue, the airline really could not take the chance that some fluke accident occurred and they allowed the situation to remain as against the rules when they knew it.
I wouldn’t dream of doing that in a million years. I’ve been angry and lots of times I have felt wronged. Maybe it’s because I’m old (I’ll be 63 next month), but social media isn’t where I go to seek redress of wrongs.
I was in a situation last year like the one you described with the bike owner–except it was a cleaner who lost an expensive item of my clothing. He refused to give me money for my lost item. I waited 3 months and then filed a claim in Small Claims Court. I won and the cleaner sent me a check.
I really do not feel the social media is the best venue for redressing wrongs. I have had a lot of success writing detailed, pointed letters to presidents and customer service after first trying nicely to contact them and work things out. Honey seems to work nicely, most times. I can up the heat as needed.
“Pizzagirl, the family flew and never had a problem. They flew, what two weeks earlier? No problem. Do you think their past experiences are meaningless?”
Let’s suppose that this was a non-disabled, normal 3 yo girl. Her parents happened to carry her on their laps and no FAs said anything. Maybe she was small for her age, maybe the FAs just didn’t look closely enough and assumed she was only 2, or the flight was already running late and they didn’t want to make a big deal of it so they turned a blind eye. But now here comes a FA who says - sorry, she needs her own seat.
Would your argument be “because they got away with it before, allowances should be made so that they continue to get away with it”? If that wouldn’t fly for a non-disabled child, why would it fly for a disabled child? The only reason I can see that you think so is that you know what it’s like to have a disabled child and so you extend sympathy and rule-breaking to her that you wouldn’t extend to a mother with a non-disabled 3 yo who got caught.
And, dstark, did Ivy have a boarding pass for a different section of the plane 2 weeks earlier? Was there an extra seat next to her mom? We don’t know.
Back when I had a 2 year old, I sometimes let my child sit on my lap until take off. A FA might say the child had to be strapped in for take off and landing, and I’d assure them I would do so. It was rare–although it did happen–for a FA to walk back and make sure I’d actually done it. They just assumed that since there was an empty seat next to me, I would strap my child in and I did.
So, maybe 2 weeks ago, when the family flew, Ivy sat on her mom’s lap next to an empty seat and the FAs just assumed mom would put her in it for take off and landing. This time, it was evident that wasn’t going to happen because there wasn’t a seat next to mom.
I don’t know–this is pure speculation–but I doubt that 2 weeks earlier 12 out of 16 people in the group were upgraded.
In other words, maybe it was just a lot more obvious this time that Ivy’s parents were breaking the rule.
“What the captain , the airline, the FA, all should have done, was gently explain to the woman, that the problem was that the others had not enforced the airline’s regulations in the past, which happens with a lot of thing, but that the rules were in fact as stated, and apologize for the expectations that were developed from not enforcing these rules more stringently in the past.”
Don’t you think that’s exactly what happened? They said to her - I’m sorry, yes, the rule had been broken previously and we’re sorry for that, but on our watch it’s not going to be, so let’s figure out how we can get her into her own seat? It’s clear that the mother didn’t just respond, oh, ok, I see your point, got it - let’s figure out how we can prop her in her own seat exactly as you guys want us to do, thanks for the safety tip.
As long as all we have
is mostly speculation, how about mom was holding Ivy with a small baby blanket around her when the first 3 FA came by, or maybe on previous flights? Ivy seemed small and young, so they have got away with in the past. Still doesn’t matter. Mom (no word from dad) acted like an entitled Diva. Makes me want to fly United next time I have the choice, pricing comparative of course.
I don’t think the mother is making the case that the child should have gotten away with this because the airlines always have even though that is a big reason for the indignation and rancour. I think that the child truly does have trouble with sitting unsupported, that it 's easier to put her on the lap, and that because it’s clearly the case; she is clearly disabled and there clearly is a sitting problem that reasonableness and plain old kindness would prevail, as there is no harm done, was probably what she was thinking. And it could well be that the child was given a pass for that reason. I don’t know if I would flag a small disabled child who has trouble sitting for sitting on the lap and check out whether she has a boarding pass, is of age, etc, etc. Had she been clearly over age 2 or there seemed to be some danger or some other flag, I might have done so, but I would have been inclined to give it a pass. There are times many of us do give a pass for some things that are not exactly according to the rules given the situations. The mother thought it was a reasonable expectation, and frankly so did 3 out of 4 FAs. But the problem is that when one the rules are brought out, they prevail.
Say I have a suitcase that is slightly over sized, but fits just fine in the overhead bin. But say some eagle eyed flight attendant catches it. Somehow I got by the gate people and the boarding pass checker with the thing but that FA can tell that the suitcase is an inch over sized. Maybe she knows that brand, whatever. If she calls me on it, yes, I’d be irritated if it fit just fine, I’ve been using it for years on many flights, and it looks like other suitcases on board are even bigger. But if she calls me on it and it is indeed over regulation, there is a whole bevy of consequences that can be imposed, Yes, I’d be irritated, more than irritated, even though she would be perfectly right and I would be in the wrong. SO, no, I don’t think that once the rule was cited, it should have been an exception, due to the risks the airline takes if anything happens when they know something isn’t regulation. But I can be sympathetic to what happened while still saying that the family should have followed the rules and by not doing so, risked what exactly happened and even worse. They could have been expelled from the plane. The flight could have been cancelled. The child could have been hurt during the flight or hurt someone else if turbulence and issues cause her to become loose. All possibilities and the airline would not want to assume the risks of the last two scenarios as they would be liable for knowingly allowing an over aged child sit on a parents lap without the proper restraints.
I really have spent too much time on this, but…
It could also be that when there is a seat readily available for the child, the FAs assume that if there were an emergency crash landing scenario, the child COULD be placed in a seat and buckled in, if needed. But when there’s no seat, that’s not possible.
More recent interview with mom has her saying Ivy was “buckled in at the waist” and put her head on dad’s lap and saying she will use a special seat for Ivy in the future. http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/United-Airlines-New-Jersey-Family-Special-Needs-Child-Seating-287379061.html
Her attitude does seem very different in this video than it is in her tweets and the earlier CBS interview.
So, I wish Ivy and her family the best. I hope they are never in a flight disaster but am happy to know that Ivy will be protected by a special car seat if they are and that Ms. Kirschenbaum will never know the agony Evan Tsao’s mom felt when she lost her grip on her child.
And I am glad United wouldn’t comment on whether the FA was disciplined because i’m hoping that means no.
I agree with you, Jonri. I am glad that a special seat will be used for Ivy in the future, and I also think that the airlines should require secured seats for infants and babies currently exempted due to age, for safety sake. Also there should also be clear language saying that a specific medical exemption is required and how to get it for those who might need one. Many of us, self included, get preconceived notions on reasonableness, when exceptions end up causing more harm than good in the long one, or can have terrible consequences. It’s taken me years to evolve to this way of thinking.
@dstark - So did you return the bike and the money?
“dstark, most of the time, if I drive over the speed limit I am not caught. I almost “never have a problem.” But do I freak out if I get a speeding ticket? Of course not”
Well, you could always try this mom’s defense. “I always talk on my cell phone when driving, and nobody has stopped me before.” Or, “The last police officer I passed while texting didn’t pull me over”. Or, “Gee, I didn’t know seat belts were the law. Sure, maybe there’s public service announcements and it’s in the drivers training book, but you guys didn’t tattoo it on my arm, so it’s really your fault I don’t know it.” Or, “I always run that stop light and nobody has ticketed me yet, so I figured I could just keep doing it.”
Uh oh! What’s that line, “Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt?”