Elit’s original blog post says that numerous passengers approached them after the flight to express outrage and support. Have any of them come forward to corroborate her account?
“The major job of a FA is safety. Not getting blankets and pillows or fixing your drink, but ensuring safety procedures are followed.”
What??? I guess that’s okay as long as they make sure and get MY glass of wine. Or two. Then they can go ahead and deal with that silly safety stuff.
PG,
I thought somewhere in a blog or something it was suggested that the 4 coach seats were occupied, and thats what led to your retracting a previous post. I makes much better sense that the empty seat would be in coach (likely a middle seat between family members to allow them to be more comfortable, unless the seats were rows of 2) so thats why I am asking. If truthfully (who knows) the 4 seats in coach were occupied by family, then that empty seat would be up front. Who would do that? Really? Leave a first class seat empty and sit in coach, when the FC seat was paid for?
The only person I know who gives up a business/first class seat (and overseas no less) was my silly DH, who worked for a company that had 2 divisions. His division sent him overseas in business or first class. The other sent their managers (a level above him at the time) in coach. So he decided it would be wiser to sit with them and sit in coach both to have the time with them and also not to “outclass” them (for lack of a better word). He is a better person than I . I would not have done that. On occasion I’d fly over on a consolidator fare or something to meet him for a brief holiday, and on the return, he’d sit in my coach seat and I’d sit in his business/first class seat. Now THAT I understand 
Wise man, that DH of mine.
Pizzagirl, :). I know what I am getting. You aren’t getting what I am getting. 
I have already explained this multiple times. Depends on the situation. I do think a disabled person should be looked at differently than a normal healthy person. So the fact that a normal 3 year old is not allowed to sit on his or her mom’s lap is fine with me.
I am going to watch Happy Valley now. I have heard good things sbout the show.
Is this an ADA issue, so that the disabled passenger has equal access to the flight? (“equal access” is ADA terminology).
Since the purchase on an airline ticket nowadays requires providing date of birth, I can’t see why airline tix couldn’t easily have indicated on them a notation for “Minor” or “Under age 2”.
The tickets are already have ad hoc notations like “TSA Pre” printed on them.
I think it is a safety issue. Even if there was no rule, even if was enforced erratically, it is still a safety issue. Especially for a child that can’t support her own head! I would assume the parents were neglectful to hear that they thought holding the child was adequate.
I think when booking they ask you to indicate if you are traveling with a lap child under 2, yes?
This is not an ADA issue. The airlines are most accommodating of disabled passengers. But they need to know there is going to need to be an accommodation made. The family could,easily have contacted the airline to explain that they had a child who could “not sit” and absolutely the airline would have worked with them to make their travel possible.
The issue here was no forward planning.
And yes, dstark, I realize that parents of typically developing kids don’t have to do,this planning ahead. But when you have a passenger with any kind of disability that could impact travel, you gotta plan ahead.
I asked, semi tongue in cheek, because dstark said disabled people should be looked at differently from a normal healthy person. Made me wonder if ADA folk would take issue with that. And absolutely- the procedure to file a request for an exception was readily available through the FAA/airlines. It just wasn’t followed.
I again ask at what age is crazy mom going to stop wanting Ivy to be a lap “baby”?As far as I understand, her reasoning for holding Ivy is because she can’t sit by herself. When Ivy is 15, can she have her own seat? She will still need the body support that she needs now, as she will need at 4,5,6 etc. Is Elit still going to declare Ivy can’t sit at those ages?!
FWIW, I don’t believe that 3 FA’s were arguing with the 4th over whether to allow Ivy to stay in mom’s lap, OR that there was anything in their manual that would allow that. I think that is the mom’s interpretation of conversations she could not clearly hear, colored more by wishful thinking than anything close to the truth. I think that if anything, the 4 FA’s were having discussions trying to figure out a way to solve the problem they were confronted with: a child who needed to be seated with a parent stupid enough to board the plane without without a car seat or harness for the child. They would not have dealt with that problem before, probably because all the other mom’s of special needs children come prepared with appropriate equipment, such as the car seats described in this article: https://www.yahoo.com/travel/unitedwithivy-mom-was-so-wrong-107267702627.html
That is, the only thing being discussed was probably 4 FA’s trying to figure out how to get the kid properly restrained in the seat. If they went to their manual, they would have been looking for an answer to that question.
It probably would be nice if all planes included a couple of those CARES harnesses - http://kidsflysafe.com/ – just to have on hand in case it’s needed – but this is probably a problem that hasn’t arisen in the past, because other parents of kids over age 2 who are unable to sit on their own bring the equipment required. (Most parents of toddlers end up bringing a whole lot more than they really need – extra diapers, clothing changes, toys, packed food, etc – so it’s almost incomprehensible that a parent of a child unable to sit would board a plane without the appropriate gear.)
My guess is that if “baggage handlers” were brought on board, it was in an attempt to locate the kids car seat. That is, maybe the FA asked the mom whether the child had brought an FAA-approved car seat with her, and the mom said that it was in checked baggage - so they decided to go get it – but then mom would not cooperate by producing her luggage tag to identify the seat.
If there was a discussion among FA’s, the issue being debated was probably whether or not to throw mom & baby off the plane.
The reason I don’t believe there was a debate over the FAA rule is that’s not the sort of thing that happens in a workplace environment, especially with a flight crew. You aren’t going to have 3 employees trying to convince a 4th to violate regulations – not unless those 3 are hoping to get themselves fired.
"thought somewhere in a blog or something it was suggested that the 4 coach seats were occupied, and thats what led to your retracting a previous post. "
My retraction was in suggesting that they were trying to get an extra seat in premium. They did indeed apparently buy 16 tix for 16 pax, so nothing to see there.
If the passenger really cannot sit, the airlines WILL make accommodations. I flew with a broke…full cast from toe to hip. I contacted the airline well in advance of my trip. I was able to be flexible with my planning. I could not bend my leg. I was seated in a three seat row alone, and my body was trapped into one seatbelt, and my leg onto another.
I planned ahead. And no, I was not charged a dime for those two extra seats. It was an accommodation the airline made for me…because I really couldn’t bend that leg.
Thanks for clarifying. So in all likelihood the empty seat was in coach, which makes sense all the way around.
The issue here was no forward planning.
Not exactly. This mom planned to do whatever she wanted to do and then got all outraged when informed that the plane wouldn’t be taking off until she followed the rules like everyone else. And, the flight attendant knew the child was over 2 because the child has a passport stating that she is 3 and despite what the mom says she does not look like a one year old.
The senior flight attendant was the mean enforcer so I suspect Calmom is correct and the other 3 were not trying to talk her down. That wouldn’t happen. And the child sat, so she can sit.
“I do think a disabled person should be looked at differently than a normal healthy person. So the fact that a normal 3 year old is not allowed to sit on his or her mom’s lap is fine with me.”
Dstark, turbulence doesn’t care. This is the frustrating part that you don’t acknowledge.
Is your position on airplane travel consistent with your position on car travel? Do you also think a normal 3 yo shouldn’t be allowed to sit on mother’s lap in a car, but a disabled 3 yo should be allowed to?
“This mom planned to do whatever she wanted to do and then got all outraged when informed that the plane wouldn’t be taking off until she followed the rules like everyone else. And, the flight attendant knew the child was over 2 because the child has a passport stating that she is 3 and despite what the mom says she does not look like a one year old.”
I take her at her word that she didn’t know, but I also find it strange that she didn’t, in the totality of her circumstance, affluent, well-traveled, and an advocate. I don’t know if the bicycle carrier seat is specially designed for disabled children, but that didn’t appear out of nowhere. As I hypothesized before, I doubt whatever adventures the family had in the DR happened without them calling and planning ahead to ensure her inclusion.
“The reason I don’t believe there was a debate over the FAA rule is that’s not the sort of thing that happens in a workplace environment, especially with a flight crew. You aren’t going to have 3 employees trying to convince a 4th to violate regulations – not unless those 3 are hoping to get themselves fired.”
Most definitely. I don’t believe it either. Maybe a mention, a question, or a discussion, but not a three against one debate. Nobody wants to lose their job, get an FAA investigation or violation.
Busdriver, would a pax have the “right” to tell a FA to summon a captain to settle an issue? Or do you think it’s more likely the FAs decided to involve him with a recalcitrant family? I don’t routinely summon pilots to do my bidding, so I wouldn’t know, I just shut up and take my seat and get out of the darn aisle already.