Turbulence doesn’t care if it is a hefty 23 month old either.
Maybe it should be no lap babies at all. Actually, it probably should. But, so what? It’s not. Some of you seem to think this is about fairness. In reality, the mother should be more concerned about her child’s safety than whether or not a flight attendant displayed the appropriate amount of compassion to suit her that particular day. She’s entitled, and not very nice either.
To me this seems to be an argument that the health and safety of the disabled child is not as important as the lives and well-being of healthy kids. Along the lines of: “this kid is already damaged goods, so no point in bothering to protect her.” I know that @Dstark doesn’t believe that – but that’s where that line of reasoning leads.
I think that the reason some parents of special needs’ kids may be particularly outraged at this mom’s attitude - such as the Hallie Levine, the mom of a blind child and one with Down’s syndrome, who wrote the article at https://www.yahoo.com/travel/unitedwithivy-mom-was-so-wrong-107267702627.html – is that they might encounter that other sort of thinking all too often. Situations where they feel that their special needs kids are being treated as “less than” – perhaps the last in a group to have their needs attended to, or being overlooked when others plan group events,as if their kid with a disability doesn’t count as a real human being.
Sorghum, :).
“Busdriver, would a pax have the “right” to tell a FA to summon a captain to settle an issue? Or do you think it’s more likely the FAs decided to involve him with a recalcitrant family? I don’t routinely summon pilots to do my bidding, so I wouldn’t know, I just shut up and take my seat and get out of the darn aisle already”
pg, it’s been a long time since I’ve dealt with paying passengers (thank you, God), but even when I did, I don’t think I could answer that question accurately. I suspect if someone is shrieking, “Ask the captain, ask the captain,” the flight attendants very well might. As a captain, I can tell you if there is something going on that is causing a delay, I want to know what is happening and if there is something I can do to expedite a solution.
I’m sure the flight attendants are very happy with people like you, and when I’m a passenger, I also sit down, shut up, and keep my feet off the seats, as they say!
At the risk of repeating previous posters:
The mother did far more to humiliate her child by buying her an economy seat instead of a first class seat with the rest of the party.
That’s what the local article said, but the link above to the other parent said all four kids were booked in economy, and two parents in first class. Not what I understood; the local article in the NJ paper said that there were five in the party, and only one seat was economy.
Buy a freaking car seat and stop picking on poor working class people like flight attendants who couldn’t buy a first class ticket with a week’s salary.
I did some googling.It seems that airlines don’t want to put infants in the more expensive seats because they get lots of complaints. http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052970204517204577042111627445348
Ms. K says in her first tweet that the FA asked to see Ivy’s boarding pass. If Ivy had had a first class boarding pass in her own name, there would have been no issue. If Ivy had a first class boarding pass in the name of someone who swapped with her, I think Ms. K would have said that. I’m about 99% certain that Ivy had an economy boarding pass, probably in her own name. That’s why United issued a statement early on saying the parents bought first class tickets for themselves and an economy seat for their child. So, now I shall believe Ms. K’s story that the airline decided how to divide up the upgrades and yes the airline didn’t upgrade a small child. I don’t think that had anything to do with a disability; it was just her age.
That’s NOT discrimination against the disabled. Hey, I think it’s unfair. But it’s discrimination against families with children, NOT the disabled.
It also seems that not all rows have extra oxygen masks and that infants can’t sit on a lap in a row that doesn’t have them. Moreover, on most planes, there’s only one extra mask per row in the rows that have them–so if mom and dad are traveling with twins under 2 or a new born and a child 18 months older and didn’t purchase seats for them they can’t sit together because each baby needs a mask. So, in addition to the “flying through the air” problem, it’s at least possible that mom sat in a row that didn’t have an extra oxygen mask.
Now doing little more research, I figured out what kind of plane it was. http://flightaware.com/live/flight/UAL1515/history/20141230/1755Z/MDPC/KEWR
Busdriver, do you know whether each row in biz class of a Boeing 737-900 has an extra oxygen mask? WSJ says seatguru has the info but I can’t find it.
BTW, you can tell from the link that the plane was over an hour late leaving.
The ADA specifically bans a requirement that airlines require advance notice of disabilies. However, there is a statement on the FAA site that children who aren’t able to sit in a seat belt can travel in special car seat OR use a wheel chair. Additionally, if an adult has a disability that prevents him/her from being strapped into a seat or wheelchair, an accommodation MUST be requested from the FAA itself. The airline can’t waive the strapped into the seat requirement.
The mother did not buy anything. Her father used miles to purchase tickets for everyone in the group. The seats were then assigned.
Ok. I think I have said enough here. I have even said things I did not say. 
One thing that would change my mind is if Ivy flew in a specialized seat to the Dominican Republic. If that information ever comes out, maybe somebody can pm me.
Busdriver11, I do like your sense of humor.
“Do you know whether each row in biz class of a Boeing 737-900 has an extra oxygen mask? WSJ says seatguru has the info but I can’t find it.”
It’s my understanding that passenger jets generally have an extra mask per row, but I’ve never flown the 737, so I haven’t looked at the systems manual and can’t verify that as accurate. Sorry.
“Busdriver11, I do like your sense of humor”
I’m glad you realized that I am just about always making an attempt (though sometimes a futile one) to be funny. Even without emoticons
I’d like to see the ADA regulation that says the airline can’t require advance notice to provide an accommodation. The ADA requires accommodations IF POSSIBLE. It doesn’t require that if you are blind you can demand to sit in the exit rows or that you can stand in the aisle because you have a bad back. IF POSSIBLE, but you still have to follow all the safety rules.
If you need oxygen on a flight, you have to order it in advance (and pay for it!) When my daughter was in the NICU, another baby was being discharged, but this baby didn’t live in our city and had been born there when her mother was traveling. Babies on oxygen get a small amount, often 1/4 liter or even 1/32. The oxygen on planes is 2 liters and can’t be adjusted. Regulations didn’t allow oxygen tanks (now they have these condenser things, but this was 19 years ago) Did the airline have to change everything for this baby? No. They worked with the doctors to see what would be best (just having the oxygen blowing by the baby, not using a mask). Should these parents have been able to walk up to the flight and just demand all these accommodations? No. They would have been told to get home another way.
Why NOT work with the airlines? Geez, if you tell them you have a german shepherd 100 pound guide dog, they usually put you in a seat with more leg room. If you tell them you need to sit near a bathroom (and why!) they can help you out.
Actually, now, for nearly all airlines, if you need O2, you have to give the airlines advance notice (preferably 72 or 48 hours ahead) and arrange to bring it on the plane yourself in an FDA approved device that will deliver oxygen at a higher concentration than room air. There are many, many people who fly with disabilities and oxygen regularly and don’t create a ruckus and make planes 1 hour or more delayed. The airlines require advanced notice if you need oxygen in flight and people have only been allowed to bring oxygen delivery devices on US planes from 2008.
I agree, rhandco. The mother should have bought the child a seat next to her, whether in coach or business class (with a car seat.) That is what I would have done, even if I had intended to try to get away with holding the child on my lap. (The lack of a car seat might however have been a tip-off to a FA that the child was over age.) But, I think I also would have refused to take a vacation with family members unless someone were to agree to help me carry a car seat through security and onto the plane along with all the other necessary gear.
I am a stickler for these types of things. Many times, when my kids were little, I pulled the car over the minute one of them (almost always my autistic child) attempted to get out of the car seat. We did not, in fact, take family vacations of this sort when our children were growing up - hard enough sometimes to travel across town with our autistic child, for several reasons. I wish however we had been able to build the types of memories that come with family travel, and am happy to hear that this family will continue to fly.
Now that this story has gone public, and the family has protested that in the past the rules have not been consistently enforced, I wonder if United is going to need to pull records of previous flights where this family was aboard and figure out who was negligent in checking to see that all children of appropriate age were in their own seats. It seems that up until now there was likely a de facto policy of eyeballing lap babies for size rather than counting numbers or checking age.
I expect that this will no longer be the case going forward. Too much liability for the airline. Now that I think of it, if there was indeed a written policy to the effect that FAA regulations with a clear and easily interpreted age cut-off could be disregarded at an FA’s discretion, United has even bigger problems. But, as others have noted, it is unlikely that such a handbook exists - just an informal policy. Perhaps the cut-off should be made by weight rather than age, but this is a decision that would need to be left to the FAA.
I do not like the idea of allowing lap babies, now that I am learning more about safety issues. I would also like to hear that this family’s pediatrician had brought up specific protocols for air travel with the family.
I do understand how a mother who is traveling with a special needs child could have this sort of melt-down in these circumstances. I think that they are now, however, having second thoughts about going public so quickly.
A lot of people nowadays are getting a note from a shrink claiming their dog is a “service animal” needed for psychological support. Some people have even brought their pet pigs in the passenger cabin w this excuse.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/commentary/ct-emotional-support-animals-ziezulewicz-met-20141231-story.html#page=1
I’ve seen able-bodied passengers w their lapdogs wearing a “service animal” vest, seated on their owner’s lap for the entire flight. GMTbetterhalf snapped a photo of a pair of vest-wearing dogs laying down under their owner’s layflat bed in int’l business class.
This isn’t the regulation itself, but it is what the US Department of Transportation says is the law.
http://airconsumer.ost.dot.gov/publications/horizons.htm#AdvanceNotice
I understand this to mean that airlines can require advance notice ONLY if a disabled passenger requires certain specific equipment. But, this family didn’t ask for equipment–and the airlines don’t provide car seats–so, my understanding is no notice was required.
And, I don’t think advance notice is required if you are traveling with a service animal–of course, it’s wise to give it, but it isn’t required, as far as I know.
For bringing O2 on planes via your own machine, I have always been led to believe that advanced notice is REQUIRED and is so stated on all the airline websites I’ve seen so far. In any case, it seems most prudent to do so and I always advise passengers to give notice before and after purchasing their airplane ticket, just so everyone is clear and the travel can be as uneventful for all concerned as possible.
Jonri, the web site you linked to says, “Airlines may not require passengers with disabilities to provide advance notice of their intent to travel or of their disability except as provided below.” Whenever one sees the word “except” in a sentence, it’s a really good idea to look up the exceptions… in this case there is a rather long list under the title - “When Advance Notice Can Be Required” - it’s 800 words so I won’t bother pasting it in here.
The point is: if a traveler wants or needs something special – something that would no be ordinarily available on a pane – they need to give notice.
The point of the regulation is to prevent discrimination against travelers who do not feel they need extra accommodations beyond those typically available at airports. For example, the airline cannot refuse to allow someone in a wheelchair or using crutches to board.
"agree, rhandco. The mother should have bought the child a seat next to her, whether in coach or business class (with a car seat.) That is what I would have done, even if I had intended to try to get away with holding the child on my lap. "
Rhandco and frazzled, this isn’t accurate. The family of 16 had, as a whole, 12 seats in premium and 4 in coach. Whose name is on which ticket is completely irrelevant to anything in this entire story, since they can all mix and match and divide among themselves as they see fit. The fact that Ivy’s “real” ticket was coach means nothing - it could have been in premium, and the issue wasn’t that she didn’t have a ticket, it was that she wasn’t being seated in her own seat but instead was on mother’s lap.
It APPEARED worse because they “filled” the 12th premium seat with another family member (which, under normal circumstances, makes total sense) and then it was - “get her in her seat, where is her boarding pass - you mean she’s supposed to be in economy by herself?” The FA wouldn’t have known the 16-of-us-so-we-mixed-and-matched off the bat. The FA would have concluded - this is weird. These people bought a seat for a disabled child in economy by herself.
But even if it had been “her boarding pass reads premium” AND “we left this premium seat open, it’s hers but she can’t use it so we are keeping her on mom’s lap” -it still doesn’t matter. She needed to be in her own seat. The actual boarding pass she held is a distraction and a red herring, because the family as a whole had sufficient seats to sit her with a parent in either class.
Interesting. So if obesity is considered a disability, will obese travelers be able to also get empty seats adjacent to them at no charge to “spread” into?
Obesity may or may not be considered a disability under ADA. These cases involve reported workplace discrimination , not airline policies http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=23420f07-4960-48c3-b238-05974cda9ff7 Some airline policies suggest purchasing a business class seat as it is larger (therefore there is an “accommodation” available to the customer so they are not being discriminated against). http://www.independenttraveler.com/travel-tips/none/airline-obesity-policies This is no different than a very talk person being unable to sit comfortably in coach.
I’ve also flown with family members who have broken legs and had to have seats reassigned. We were moved to the bulkhead where there was more “legroom” but not given any empty seat next to us. Across the aisle in the other bulkhead row was a former NBA player who was very tall and whose knee no longer bent due to injuries and surgeries. When no one was in the aisle (passengers or FAs) he stretched his leg out. He had to reposition himself when people and carts needed to pass. No extra empty seat for him either.