<p>Call me old fashioned by it seems to me that a good tongue-lashing by a stern teacher will usually stop an obnoxious bully in his or her tracks. And no, I don’t go for the ‘he said/she said’ defense by administrators. That’s a lame excuse to do nothing. Observant and engaged educators tend to know who is who in their classrooms.</p>
<p>“Observant and engaged educators”</p>
<p>This is not most third grade teachers. Unfortunately.</p>
<p>We don’t know the particulars in this case. Never do with these news stories that often get things wrong and really from any biased or limited knowledge sources. I can tell you that those who have kids being bullied live in a ring of hell, since too many times there is nothing that can be done. A friend of mine has a daughter who came home from school one day in tears, because a group of girls in her class decided to totally ignore her, other than to glance her way, exchange significant glances and gestures with each other and snicker. How the heck does one do anything about that? Then they claimed that her farts made them sick which was a doubtful thing in that it was not an issue with the girl. They were just being plain mean and in a way that was difficult to combat. </p>
<p>Accidental bumps, ostracizing, doing things on the fly, all of these things are enough to drive anyone to distraction. </p>
<p>We had a discussion about this kind of bullying when I sensed a bit of this going on in a theater group of middle school kids that I helped out with. I just approached the subject head on. A lot of kids don’t consider this bullying but just avoiding someone they don’t like, and it snowballs into this as it seems kids and dogs have this pack mentality. In our case, the targets were kids that were annoying and not someone most kids wanted to be around One had the habit of picking his nose and eating it. The other was just one beat off in reacitons and actions and none of the other kids wanted him around, and they sure as heck were not about to invite him to join them in after school/activity things. But by hitting the nail right on the target, we were able to get rid of some of the sneaky bullying.</p>
<p>If the parent has a case in all of this, good for the parent and child. It does call attention to a serious problem, that I’ve not been able to satisfactorily address even as the responsible adult in a group. </p>
<p>Would it be victim-blaming to tell the kid who’s picking his nose and eating it in groups that he needs to stop if he ever wants other kids to befriend him? Good grief.</p>
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<p>Flossy, when I read your post below and observe that you have put “bully victims” and “bullies” in quote marks, it seems to express a certain skepticism that the bullies are actually bullies and the victims are actually victims. Perhaps that is what the poster above is reacting to?</p>
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<p>Okay, I get it. People are reading skepticism into quote marks. My point was more that Susie may be a bully to Sally but not to Jane, Mary, and Michele. Thus, they will not consider her a bully, at all. And, the teacher may love Susie and think the bullied child is also a little odd. That doesn’t make it fine, though. And, I never suggested it did. It’s just more complicated than a mean girl picking on a random wonderful kid most of the time. It’s never okay.</p>
<p>Actingmt, I’m sure the kid was told many times. That was just one of his more endearing features that got other kids not liking him, to put it very mildly.</p>
<p>The point I was trying to make is trying to control bullying is like nailing jello to a tree. I spent several years on top of a group of kids prime to do this, and it is not something one can often do. You can make certain rules and stay on watch for them, but you cannot watch everyone 1000% of the time, and you cannot always nail the bullying when the bullies are being sneaky about it. Believe me, I’m pretty danged good at managing a group of middle schoolers. not a skill I like using, and it’s very difficult. With social media these days, it’s even more difficult. It’s like the old “he’s looking at me” complaints to mom some times, with a lot of merit but not much one can do, especially when it’s other peoples darlings you are dealing with. Old time Dad could just whack everyone at the table on such occasions and make it very painful for the bullies. It’s hard to put pressure on these sneaks at times. And sometimes the victims make it very easy for their bullies. Some of them do smell bad, say inappropriate things, have bad social skills and are not people most of us want to be around. Telling the kids that there is a definite line crossed where avoidance behavior becomes bullying is difficult to define. I used to have to do this a lot. </p>
<p>So, were saying that an adult figuratively grabbing a bully by the scruff of the neck is unacceptable today? Is this the fear of litigation from the little darling’s clueless or indifferent parents?</p>
<p>Lake Washington, that is absolutely correct. Unless there is direct danger of injury, I was specifically not permitted to touch the children, much less grabbing them I guess if a kid is about to jump or punch another, that would be permitted intervention, but at my size and strength not an action I would likely take. That was not an issue for me, however. It was the sneaky bullying and ostracizing and making some kids really feel bad that was the challenge to address, and believe me, telling a parent of some these bullies of this sort of thing never did any good. There were a few extreme cases where the parent was told, and it caused a lot of problems. and worsened the situation. </p>
<p>I don’t advocate physical action anyways, on the part of a parent or anyone other than as an emergency measure. I’m a small woman; physical intervention on kids mostly bigger than me is not a good idea, and I could get hurt worse than any of them if I get involved in physical scuffles. It would have to be an urgent matter for me to take physical action. I do not use physical threat, overt or even a hint of it as a possibility in handling a group of kids that age and even a lot younger. </p>
<p>Bullies are a category.
Just because Bobbi Butthead doesnt try to intimidate Connie & Donnie, it doesnt mean that they are not aware of her treatment of Victim Vince.
Additionally, if Victim Vince relocates, it is only a matter of time before another Victim is targeted, perhaps Connie or Donnie will fill in until that time comes.</p>
<p>Flossy, it’s not just the quotation marks in your comment, it’s the statement regarding the bully and the victim that “each of them will usually have plenty of classmates lining up to say the other was at fault.”</p>
<p>This has not been true in my experience. Perhaps if there were an exceptionally vicious bully, people would support the bully due to fear. But otherwise, I think it’s quite clear who is at fault, unless one thinks that the victim “started it” by being a little weird.</p>
<p>I have a friend whose daughter has been bullied by the same boy since kindergarten (she just finished third grade). The bullying happens both at school and on the bus, even though the kids have been separated. He just will not leave her alone. It has been exhausting and frustrating for the mom to try to get anywhere with the school. Most of the time the teachers and administrators seem to side with the other child, who has learning issues. It’s to the point where the only solution for my friend’s family seems to be to move the girl from the neighborhood school, which doesn’t seem right.</p>
<p>Well, I didn’t say the victim started it by being weird in some accusatory way. Actually, I didn’t say anything in the least bit controversial that hasn’t been backed up here by several other posters. More often than not there are reasons certain kids are picked on. That doesn’t make it right but it does seem a little silly to act as though it is not the case. We had a 6th grade teacher who was very good at spotting potential bully-targets because one of her kids ( a male ballet dancer) had been bullied and she could often see trouble ahead for some of her students. Not all parents wanted to hear this, though. </p>
<p>There is a difference between “reasons that certain kids are picked on” (that is true, I think) and disagreements about who started it, which you seemed to be alleging, Flossy, since you said that there would be people lining up on both sides, with regard to the latter question.</p>
<p>I reread the thread, and I found statements to the effect that some teachers liked the bullies and would protect them (even, in one case, by removing evidence). I found one statement by someone else that other students might support bullies out of fear of retribution. I didn’t find anyone saying that the other students were unaware of who was a bully.</p>
<p>The “he said/she said” comments appear to refer directly to bully and victim, not to other observers.</p>
<p>It is possible that a student who is just larger and stronger than others might be regarded as a bully, when he actually is not. There was such a student in my elementary school, and most of us were afraid of him. But I never actually saw him do anything wrong. I don’t think he was being sneaky about it.</p>
<p>It is possible that the growth of anti-bullying programs recently may have caused some students to be charged with bullying, when they are actually not bullying another person. I also think that the increase in the number of students on the autism spectrum might contribute to an increase in bullying, when coupled with inclusion policies for the classrooms. (I support the inclusion policies, but think that more bullying could be an unintended consequence.)</p>
<p>Have you ever actually been involved in an investigation? There are usually two sides. And, the alleged bully does tend to be much more popular with everyone than the alleged victim. That’s why this is hard. If it was just a big mean kid punching a wimpy kid at lunch it would be not be a difficult issue to end at all.</p>
<p>It is possible that there are two sides more frequently now than when I was growing up, because the anti-bullying programs might be encouraging people to label behavior that is just unfriendly as bullying, or there might be two-way charges of bullying, or an unrepeated tiff might be labeled as bullying.</p>
<p>In my school days, though, there was never any question about who was being a bully. The victim was often someone who was a bit odd, but not necessarily wimpy. There was also exclusionary behavior by most of the class, with no specific bullying ring-leader–but I think it is safe to say that everyone was aware of it, and there were attempts to stop it.</p>
<p>To add: There were hallway fights on rare occasions in my school. In those cases, there might well be a dispute about who started it. I would not have classed them as bullying. Perhaps they might be cast that way now.</p>
<p>When there was real bullying, there was no doubt among the students as to which person was the bully. Nor was there a question as to who started it, unless one considers slightly odd behavior as “starting it.”</p>
<p>The example Sally brought up is really interesting as well. the school seems to be asking the girl who says she’s being bullied to be more tolerant of her bully because he has challenges. I do think it’s different from the old days. Its more complicated.</p>
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<p>This mentality among educrats and some teachers really irritates me. If someone is being bullied by someone else, expecting the victim to “understand” the bully in this manner isn’t only a serious imposition…it is adding insult to injury for the victim. </p>
<p>I’ve also seen how this can be taken to extremes as shown by one case I know of* involving a client’s granddaughter who despite being violently stalked, found her school district spending large sums to defend him and to try bringing him back into the school population. </p>
<p>Even after he was criminally convicted and 2 separate judges have ruled he’s too dangerous to be placed back into the general school population. :(</p>
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<li>He asked me for help in locating a lawyer specializing in these types of cases as I had some friends/acquaintances who were familiar with that area of the Midwest.<br></li>
</ul>