Yeah, no, not going there. I may have recently come out of lurkdom, but I’m not a recent ejection from the turnip truck. I have a pool of female friends that bottle fed, breast fed, work from home, work at work, work on the kids, have one kid, have a bunch of kids, have no kids. We all manage to make it work as friends because we recognize those attributes don’t affect parenting skills. I know what makes a bad kid, I’ve watched one be warped by his mother, and I don’t think it’s an appropriate discussion for this particular thread. But to assume there are no crap kids out there is naive.
This Be The Verse
By Philip Larkin
They **** you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were ****ed up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself.
…
One of my favorites. And the older I get, the more I like it…
"Well, it IS OK and perfectly fine to use Similac (or Enfamil or whatever), so I’m not sure what the problem is.
This is successful marketing. Of course it’s okay. Apparently though, today’s new mothers have been feeling like they’ve been given a different message. Similac is tapping into that feeling. Rather than saying Similac is almost but not quite as good as breast milk, they are saying, Similac is OK."
This isn’t “successful marketing.” It’s just … truth. Similac / Enfamil are perfectly fine things to use. Breastmilk may be better, but not at levels that justify every single sacrifice to achieve it. Everything comes with tradeoffs in life. Breastmilk requires sacrifices on the part of those mothers who are either squicked out by the idea or who have pain or difficulties doing so or who find that it ties them down in ways that don’t work for their mental health or other responsibilities. They get to decide for themselves whether they consider those tradeoffs worth it.
It’s kind of like discussions about saving for college, right? Harvard may be technically “better” than State U, so maybe the family gives up cable and vacations for a few years to afford Harvard, but that doesn’t mean they should sell all their possessions and go live in a cardboard box just in pursuit of being able to afford Harvard.
“I may have recently come out of lurkdom, but I’m not a recent ejection from the turnip truck. I have a pool of female friends that bottle fed, breast fed, work from home, work at work, work on the kids, have one kid, have a bunch of kids, have no kids. We all manage to make it work as friends because we recognize those attributes don’t affect parenting skills. I know what makes a bad kid, I’ve watched one be warped by his mother, and I don’t think it’s an appropriate discussion for this particular thread. But to assume there are no crap kids out there is naive.”
Of course, but the post you quoted was pretty clear that we were talking about decisions that seem monumental to new mothers (formula vs bf, SAH vs work, # of kids, etc.) but aren’t really monumental at all.
The decision to breastfeed only seems monumental to breastfeeding advocates. No-one else including the baby could really give a flip. And, I never understood why anyone else would care what I fed my kids who incidentally were always much healthier than my neighbors kids despite the weird fact the she breastfed until they were like five years old which was enough information to convince me that she was the crazy one. lol.
It’s also about marketing. Many mothers have felt unsupported in their attempts to breastfeed and hospitals are trying to correct things that clearly were not in the best interest of breastfeeding. Hospitals are fighting to capture market share. They use credentials like the Baby-Friendly designation (not easy to get by the way), along with Magnet, Leapfrog, etc as advertising.
And yes, as a wonderful side effect for hospitals, they get to lay off or re-purpose their nursery staff.
Disclaimer here - I was a La Leche League leader. I started going to LLL when pregnant with D2 because, although I successfully nursed D1 as long as I wanted to, I had little support around me and virtually no mentors. I knew nursing #2, with a toddler was going to be more of a challenge, and I wanted to make educated choices; so I started going to meetings. I’ll give an example - during my 20s and 30s, I was under the assumption I had a mitral valve prolapse (was later told I probably never did); so my OB/GYNs told me that after delivery, especially if I had an episiotomy, I would have to have a dosage of prophylactic antibiotics. I mentioned to my OB/GYN a month or so out from my due date that I wanted to nurse in the delivery room, and to keep that in mind when prescribing the antibiotic (I had learned from some LLL moms that some antibiotics were not on the preferred list if you are nursing). So come delivery time, and an hour afterwards, the nurse came to hang my antibiotics, and I asked her, “It is compatible with nursing, right?” And she said she would check with the doctor; she did, and it was not. Sure enough, he had forgotten, so all it required was prescribing another one, which he did. But these are things I absolutely would not have known to even ask about had I not gone to LLL prior to delivery. I don’t think my OB/GYN cared one whim or another whether I nursed or not (which he should have because nursing after delivery helps contract the uterus more quickly), and his orders could have sabotaged my birth plan. This is just an example of why groups like LLL are needed.
Breastfeeding is a life style choice - it’s that simple. But it’s a choice. However, my experience as a leader showed me that there was a lot of misinformation out there, and this often interfered with a mom’s confidence level. I remember when D2 was about a month old, and I’d had sore nipples for way too long. So over the course of a week, I called my LLL leader, desperate for answers and reassurance I could get through this. I remember during one phone call she said to me, “Teriwtt… do you really want to breastfeed? If so, then we will get you through this. If not, then it’s OK to stop. It’s really a life style choice, and you need to decide if this is the lifestyle you want to choose.” At that point, I knew in my heart that if I didn’t stick it out, that I would come back to regret it, so with her help, I figured out what I needed to do differently, and I did it. It was because of this leader’s wise approach that I wanted to become a leader.
A couple of years later when I became a leader, I used that approach with many moms that called me for advice. For those who really wanted to nurse, but who were not getting support from their doctor’s office/family/friends/whatever, we worked with them. After a while, you’d learn to discern who were the ones who really wanted to continue nursing, and those who were just looking for an excuse to give it up. Occasionally someone would have an issue that necessitated a referral to a lactation consultant. I had no desire to try to talk someone into nursing if that’s not what they wanted to do, but for those who truly did, and were faced with some challenging situations, I would do anything to help them figure out what they needed to do, to get through it.
I had to laugh at the experience of being put off by judgmental LLL moms at a meeting. At least, when I attended meetings, and then later led them, we were so preoccupied with what we needed from the meetings ourselves (advice, support, education, motivation, etc.) that we never had the time to sit around and talk about what our bottle-feeding friends were doing.
“Of course, but the post you quoted was pretty clear that we were talking about decisions that seem monumental to new mothers (formula vs bf, SAH vs work, # of kids, etc.) but aren’t really monumental at all.”
The problem I had with the statement was that it was generalizing breastfeeding v. not breastfeeding to sort of a wider “it’s all good”. I’ve seen moms participate in discussions like this and then chirp in with “oh I leave my kids alone for three hours before I get home from work and they’re seven” because they confuse some specific choices (like strollers, working for a paycheck, etc) with what I consider to be fairly loathsome parenting behaviors.
Watch-it’ll eventually happen on this thread, and I’m sorta knocking my head against the wall for even participating-I’m trying to stick to just hunting for college stuff for the dragons and I got sucked right in, damn it.
There are scientists who do say infant feeding is a monumental decision. I don’t know if they are right but the discussion does exist beyond the mommy war stuff.
“Many mothers have felt unsupported in their attempts to breastfeed and hospitals are trying to correct things that clearly were not in the best interest of breastfeeding”
Probably true but not at all my experience and my last kid was over 15 years ago. Hmm. If people are going to meetings to do something difficult it only makes sense they believe it is very worthwhile. I fully admit to using formula because it was easier. So what? it worked out just fine and didn’t require a support group. But, I do not care at all what anyone else wants to do and think the commercial is cute. The discussion is so old I cannot really believe it is continuing and someone should study the kids because anecdotally I am aware of plenty of perfectly healthy formula fed college students. So yeah.
I wasn’t breastfed. I think I turned out just fine 
I’ve recently become aware of the grandmommy wars. The mommy wars are relatively insignificant in comparison. We continue to be our own worst enemies. imho
Oh yeah. Thanks for posting that video. I thought it was a hoot!
My mother smoked while she was pregnant with me and I was almost 9 pounds. Anecdotal of course. Don’t do that.
"For those who really wanted to nurse, but who were not getting support from their doctor’s office/family/friends/whatever, we worked with them. After a while, you’d learn to discern who were the ones who really wanted to continue nursing, and those who were just looking for an excuse to give it up. "
The last phrase is the telling one, though. Why should those women who are at the point of wanting to give it up feel that they need an “excuse” to do so? Why has this particular topic become an issue where a mother can’t just confidently say, “I’m not interested, thanks” or “now that I’ve tried it, I don’t care for it so no thanks” and be on her merry way? Why has this particular decision evolved to something where a mother feels she needs to offer a justifiable excuse (“I’m undergoing chemo” … “I had quintuplets”) or “prove” that her decision to give it up came only after she exhausted herself trying?
“There are scientists who do say infant feeding is a monumental decision. I don’t know if they are right but the discussion does exist beyond the mommy war stuff.”
But again, so what? If the mother is negatively affected, then the fact that it’s a “monumental decision” has to be taken in that context - just like if the family has to live under the bridge in a cardboard box, then the “monumental decision” to go away to college needs to be taken in that context.
" I don’t think my OB/GYN cared one whim or another whether I nursed or not (which he should have because nursing after delivery helps contract the uterus more quickly), and his orders could have sabotaged my birth plan."
Anecdote only - but my ob-gyn husband cared passionately about his patients breastfeeding – until we had ours – and then it hit him like a ton of bricks that he needed to disentangle himself from this when it came to his patients. He can present facts and hold opinions, but fundamentally, it ain’t his body.
I was the smallest baby of five kids of a smoking mother and I was 8 lbs-born two weeks early. ALL of my other siblings were over 9 lbs.
But yeah, don’t do that!
I know that many studies have been done comparing breast fed children with bottle fed children. But it seems to me that the only way to know for sure HOW much better breastfeeding is for children would be to see how any given child would have turned out breastfed vs. bottle fed, with all other variables remaining identical. Obviously, there is no way to do that. So we are left with the notion that if you examine breast milk in the lab vs. formula, it well may be superior for infants. But as someone else pointed out earlier, it is unknown if this difference is really significant when taken in context with other variables. It very well may not provide signifcant benefits for every family in comparison to the other negatives. That’s why, imo, those decisions are best left to the parents to decide with no input from anyone else.
^^^ Well, as is true with many choices we make in life, there are always people who will say things to make you question your decisions. It goes both ways. Sometimes a new mom says she wants to breastfeed, but then realizes the time commitment does not align with her own needs… so she may have made a big deal about breastfeeding, then found it too overwhelming, and starts making up excuses for why she is quitting… such as, I can’t make enough milk. In truth, there are very, very few women who can truly not make enough milk if that is their value or priority. It may require some adjustments in life style, but for the woman who really wants to nurse, there are lots of ways to make sure you’re making enough milk. But it requires a pediatrician who respects your opinions, and doesn’t jump at the chance to say, just give them formula, which for the mom who truly wants to exclusively breastfeed, can create more problems if they’re struggling to make enough milk. If the mom doesn’t want to make the life style choices needed to nurse successfully, that’s fine… it’s a choice, and own it. But don’t blame it on something that can often be corrected, because then what happens is, you have a neighborhood of women who all say they didn’t breastfeed because they couldn’t make enough milk, when in reality, they didn’t want to make choices that would have created the environment for that. And another newly pregnant woman hears all these stories about women who say they can’t make enough milk, then assume that’s what’s going to happen to her. This happened to me all the time as a leader - women didn’t have the confidence because of all the myths that were out there about breastfeeding.
I like to liken the situation (a life style choice) to something parallel I experience now, and that is exercise and nutrition. There is a ton of information out there on how to maintain a healthy lifestyle, and often times, it seems overwhelming to discern the truth from the excuses. I make choices as to what I can best handle and do at any given time. But I try to make choices based on educated decisions, and not, “Oh, I can’t exercise because I have a bad back,” instead of just saying, “I hate exercising; I’m not a gym person; I don’t ‘get’ people who spend so much time doing that when we’re all going to die anyway.” But you know that person will complain about the friend/neighbor/whoever who tries to pressure them into exercising anyway… we aren’t immune to everything people say to us all the time. The more secure we are in our choices, the better able we are to just own our decisions and not try to make excuses, but it doesn’t always work. I say this as someone who feels guilty for not making better health decisions, when I darned well know better what is best for me. Sometimes I do better, and when someone suggests something to me, I’ll just say, “That is not something I value right now, but I will keep it in mind.”
Many new moms are very vulnerable to all these choices that are being thrown their way. Perhaps their pregnancy, labor and delivery didn’t go how they thought it might, and they feel like “if I can only prove to everyone that I can breastfeed, it will mitigate all those other things where my body didn’t do as I hoped.” The whole idea of pregnancy and motherhood, and its long-lasting effects on our lives became very clear to me after I had a miscarriage between my two daughters. I attended a group for moms suffering from pregnancy loss, and learned a startling statistic - 80% of marriages that suffer from two or more pregnancy losses end in divorce. Now granted, that’s only up from 50%, which is what our current divorce rate is, but it says a lot about expectations and how women feel when they feel their bodies have failed them. So for some women, they feel like they have something to prove in exclusively breastfeeding. It can be healing for them, or they can realize they’ve placed too much pressure on themselves for the wrong reasons. There’s a lot of emotion behind some of these choices, some of it carried down from our own mothers and grandmothers. It’s not always so easy to be so clear on why we make the choices we do when they’re so emotionally-laden. And it can leave us vulnerable to what others have to say, even if we do feel relatively confident in our decisions.
My mom wanted to be supportive of my choice to nurse both my babies but she said that she “didn’t have enough milk” for each of us, and tried unsuccessfully, so they gave her and the other new moms medicine to “dry things up” and bind up their breasts, so they had “minimal discomfort.”
I did OK with breastfeeding, even tho my kids, H & I figured it out as we went. The pedi & OB/GYN really didn’t say much one way or another. My kids refused the bottle, no matter what was in it or who presented it. I suppose if that was all they were offered for 24 hours or longer, they may have given in, but we gave in way before they did. 
It really is a personal matter and it’s sad to see people trying to guilt-trip others about choices that are made or not made. I am happy with the choices H & I made for our kids. We did the best we could with the resources and knowledge we had; I’m sure most parents do likewise.
It’s sad that some feel the urge to judge others harshly for choices made, but I don’t see that ending any time soon.
Exactly right. If mom also enjoys (or is at least neutral to) it, then hey, win-win for everybody. If it causes significant emotional or physical distress for mom, then I don’t see how you can just say “too bad, baby tops mom” - we’re not talking about some one-time shot where mom can just buck up, grit her teeth and deal, but something that has to be done multiple times a day for a long time.
Personally - for me - pain in that area? I’m cringing at the very thought that I would deliberately subject myself to pain there and then try to ignore it or “gut it through.” No way, no how.