Monetary, intellectual, social value of HS summer experiences

[cnp55]

<p>coldcomfort wrote:

Northstarmom, what you wrote is so nice, but I am unworthy of what you have written. I really don’t like working the farm stand and if it weren’t that it is an important part of my family’s income, I would be doing something, anything, else. I am not sure what it really teaches me.

</p>

<p>What it teaches you is very important. That <em>sometimes</em> you just have to do something you dislike, or feel isn’t that worthy, to benefit the greater good. In this case, your family’s income. It’s putting family (or community) ahead of self. </p>

<p>And on top of it, you are learning about customer service, small business, food science, cash handling, and a few other things! Don’t put it down – it may not be an internship at the World Bank, but it’s not a waste either!</p>

[marite]

<p>There is a strange disconnect in the themes of threads. On the one hand there is the idea that kids should be kids, that nothing should be done for the sake of impressing adcoms; on the other, there is the caution that certain things will not look good on resumes, including what one does in summer. </p>

<p>Yes, I realize that there are families who labor under the impression that expensive trips abroad will help their child in the college admissions sweepstakes. But I doubt that anyone puts on their resume that s/he went to xxx in order to impress adcoms. So who’s to know whether kids went to visit family or to pad resumes? The impression I get is that going on expensive trips is a sign of affluence that is not looked upon favorably. Too bad. And it would not have made an iota of difference to me how adcoms or alumni interviewers look upon expensive vacations. If S2 had been more interested in going to France than CTY. Heck, it would have been much, much cheaper!</p>

[soozievt]

<p>Marite, I agree and that was what I was trying to point out. On the one hand, kids should do what they are interested in but then we are also hearing that X, Y, or Z won’t impress adcoms. The choices of what to do in summer shouldn’t matter if they do or don’t impress adcoms. I’m reading that certain activities don’t impress but why should one care that it doesn’t impress? Do it if you’re interested in it, that’s all that should matter. I realize that there are families picking experiences with college admissions in mind and I think they are somewhat misguided that way. But what if you pick something you are interested in doing, and yes, that may be a youth travel trip, should you also have to worry if it won’t impress adcoms? If you shouldn’t choose activities with college admissions in mind, they you shouldn’t be admonished for picking activities that don’t impress. We can’t have it both ways. We can’t knock families who choose activities for the resume but then also admonish picking activities out of interest that don’t impress (and/or cost money to do). I say leave college admissions out of the equation when choosing ECs and summer experiences. I know my kids did.</p>

<p>Also, adcoms won’t always know why you chose the activity. Hopefully, a student’s interest will be demonstrated in some fashion. Sometimes, the summer activity is tied to other activiites/interests that the child has and is not a misc. add on. </p>

<p>While selective schools do look favorably upon students who do activities that are atypical of costly programs (ie., min. wage jobs, helping family, etc.), I don’t think they frown upon costly summer programs. I highly doubt that because frankly, many of my kids’ college peers have done summer activities that cost money, so apparently they got in. Selective colleges don’t seem to frown upon costly prep boarding schools either. So, I would not worry that an expensive travel program will be looked down upon on a resume. It may not impress or be “different” but who cares. Zillions of kids get admitted to selective colleges whose parents have paid money for enrichment activities (and/or private schools, etc.). Schools will examine the level of interest and commitment a kid has toward his activities and that should shine through the application and recs.</p>

[alwaysamom]

<p>My Ds have done all kinds of things in their summers, both in h/s and the older ones during college summers. None of their plans has ever included the thought of ‘how will this look on a resume’ or ‘how will this help college admissions’. I have a feeling that the vast majority of kids are very similar to my girls. Of course, there are SOME who plan out their futures from the age of 16 and pad their resumes accordingly. In our experience, this is a very small minority. And if they choose to do that, so what? Who cares? It’s tiresome to hear the harping about it here, honestly.</p>

<p>My Ds chose summer activities which allowed them to explore their interests, in addition to them being able to earn their spending money for the following year at school. One D did go on one of those community service type trips, about which negative comments have been made here and I have to say that if all of them are like the one my D did, northstarmom, you couldn’t be further from the truth about what they’re like. Two of my Ds have also done extensive community service work in our hometown but I can assure you that the experience of the one who spent six weeks in Africa was far more rewarding, life changing, personally valuable, worthwhile, and helpful to those she was serving than any of the ‘design yourself’ deals I’ve ever seen in any of the cities in which we’ve lived. Making generalizations about these programs, and the kids who participate, isn’t helpful to anyone. And once again, the comments about affluence being an automatic negative is disappointing.</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>“One D did go on one of those community service type trips, about which negative comments have been made here and I have to say that if all of them are like the one my D did, northstarmom, you couldn’t be further from the truth about what they’re like.”</p>

<p>I have not said that all community service trips are dreadful. Some are. What I am against are expensive trips that have little service work, and that parents basically send students on in order to dress up their resumes. I also am against the kind of community service that many (not all!) immigrant families arrange for their kids in their home countries. The students whom I’ve interviewed who have done this “service,” have been so vague and general about their experiences and reasons for doing the service that I have doubted that the service really existed. </p>

<p>I know students who have gone on, for instance, church mission trips to Latin America, and have gotten a lot out of the experience, and have done real work. The students also wanted to go on the trips: Had an interest in languages, helping people, spiritual issues. They weren’t forced to go by ambitious parents.</p>

<p>About 8 years ago, my family actually went to the Caribbean on a volunteer trip with a well respected agency. We took the trip because we wanted an extended period of volunteering together, and we wanted to learn about the country that my dad came from. </p>

<p>Unfortunately, the trip was very poorly planned and we sat around for 2 weeks doing nothing while the people in the village treated us badly because they thought we were CIA agents (Sure – CIA agents always travel with their kids, who then were 11, 15). The agency was supposed to send people to at the request and directions of villages, which were supposed to supply an equal number of volunteers. Unfortunately, it ended up that only one person in our village wanted the volunteers. The rest of the people were hostile to the idea. Anyway, the trip ended up being a waste of our time and money, and has left me with the belief that when it comes to volunteering, often it’s better to look for or create opportunities in one’s hometown than to venture abroad.</p>

<p>“the comments about affluence being an automatic negative is disappointing.”</p>

<p>When it comes to top colleges, being affluent – unless one is a multimillionaire donor – is actually a negative because those colleges are flooded with applications from outstanding, well off students. Since the colleges want to build economically diverse classes, it doesn’t help if an applicant comes from an economically overrepresented background.</p>

<p>It is a big plus iif an applicant comes from a low income background.</p>

<p>This also has been reflected in some of the guides to getting into elite colleges: It’s not a good idea to highlight things on one’s application that may indicate that one was born with a silver spoon. As is the case with many people, admissions officers can have a tendency to root for the underdog and be a bit envious of those who seem to be to the manor born.</p>

[fendrock]

<p>“Making generalizations about these programs, and the kids who participate, isn’t helpful to anyone. And once again, the comments about affluence being an automatic negative is disappointing.”</p>

<p>I agree.</p>

<p>Also, coldcomfort did show character and do a good thing by working the farmstand, but I’m sure he/she would also have enjoyed the chance to just do something fun.</p>

<p>Good kids can work hard AND should also have the opportunity to do something just for enjoyment’s sake.</p>

<p>So my daughter will take ballet classes but also have the chance to visit Disneyland on the weekend.</p>

[fendrock]

<p>NSM, I do think it is apparent that helps to be an applicant with low income, first generation going to college, from a state outside the Northeast, etc.</p>

<p>However, there are obviously many kids who want to apply and do not fit this profile. Personally, I think it is better to alert kids to the fact that they do not fit the most desirable mold, as well as encourage them to be themselves and not downplay who they are just because the adcoms might not like it. </p>

<p>If they have to pretend to be someone they are not in order to get in, it is probably not a good fit anyway.</p>

<p>Also, although your trip to the Caribbean did not turn out as planned, from my point of view it was a very valuable experience that could not be replicated by doing a service project at home. Everything that went wrong was illustrative of the challenges of wealthier nations attempting to assist third world countries – offering service can be much more complex than it first appears.</p>

<p>I guess what I would like to believe is that adcoms do not so much have a list of approved summer activities but rather seek evidence that applicants find insights in all kinds of unlikely situations, and maybe not the kind of insights they expected.</p>

[marite]

<p>

When it comes to top colleges, being affluent – unless one is a multimillionaire donor – is actually a negative because those colleges are flooded with applications from outstanding, well off students. Since the colleges want to build economically diverse classes, it doesn’t help if an applicant comes from an economically overrepresented background.

</p>

<p>This is nonsense. Both colleges were very happy to take our full-fare paying kids. And no, we are not major donors-billionnaires. Even Harvard does not want 6000+ students on financial aid.</p>

<p>Mini, care to comment?</p>

[alwaysamom]

<p>northstarmom, no, you did not say all were dreadful, but you certainly made it sound that way, in addition to unimpressive and a waste of time and money, with your generalization in post #3 comment.</p>

<p>"I have seen those tours and have talked with students taking them. Basically, the tours allow the students to spend lots of time socializing with other Americans while being guided by adult chaperones. Not impressive! </p>

<p>As for the community service projects – the same deal exists."</p>

<p>Perhaps the ones you’re familiar with fit that bill, but that doesn’t mean that ALL do so it’s not helpful to make generalizations like that, especially while indicating that you’re an interviewer for a selective college. </p>

<p>My Ds have also had their share of ‘fast-food’ type jobs and for anyone to think that those positions were more valuable or impressive than the experience of travelling to an African country and living in a village for six weeks building a school, teaching classes, learning the culture, befriending a Masai warrior who is younger than you and who has had to slay a lion as a rite of passage, listening to the elephants walking past your sleeping quarters every night, swimming in the Indian ocean, bartering in a Nairobi street market, to name just a few, well, in my opinion, that kind of thinking needs some adjustment. </p>

<p>As I said, I think kids should be allowed to explore their interests without worrying about college admissions or resumes, and I know that the vast majority of kids we know DO do that. Our full-fare Ds have all gotten into a vast array of selective colleges so our affluence has hardly been a negative.</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>"I agree that kids should spend their summers as they wish without worrying about how it will look on a college application.</p>

<p>That is why it concerns me when Northstarmom posts her impressions of how she assesses the way students spend their summers."</p>

<p>My assessment is based on the way that students answer questions about their experiences. I don’t find it impressive if a student tells me that they spent an entire summer volunteering in their parents’ home country, but when asked what they did, they give a vague response with no details, and when asked what they learned about the experience, they say, “People are people. They have jobs in Asia, but those jobs may be things like picking tea leaves off trees, different jobs than we have in the U.S.”</p>

<p>Think about it: If you spent an entire summer volunteering abroad, wouldn’t you be able to say you had learned more than that? That is the kind of answer that students give when parents line up opportunities for the students, but the students don’t have any real interest in those opportunities.</p>

<p>Another student told me that she volunteered in a hospital in her parent’s home country and chose to do this because her aunt who lived over there had died because of the lack of good medical care. When I asked the student how her aunt died, the student couldn’t tell me. The student also couldn’t tell me any details about the medical services that she allegedly did as a volunteer. Does this really sound like a student who was volunteering out of genuine interest or had even done any volunteer work abroad?</p>

<p>I do know students who have done volunteer work abroad and who could give specifics about what their days were like. An example was a student who had done mission work in central America, and was therefore inspired to want to go to medical school in order to become a doctor working in developing countries.</p>

<p>The student was able to provide specifics about experiences that she had during the service work. Examples were specifics about how she was able to use her Spanish skills as she worked with the kids, and experiences about how some toys that she brought distracted the kids from their fright medical procedures. </p>

<p>She also talked with the kind of eagerness that even shy people show when they’re describing something that means a lot to them. She didn’t speak in cliches or generalities, but gave specifics that made it obvious that she had truly gone through the experience, and that experience was something she did out of interest, not to dress up a resume.</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>“As I said, I think kids should be allowed to explore their interests without worrying about college admissions or resumes, and I know that the vast majority of kids we know DO do that.”</p>

<p>The vast majority of kids whom I know (and most of these kids come from educated, middle class homes) do very little to explore their interests. Most of what they do is designed to either fulfill schools’ community service requirements or to look good to colleges.</p>

<p>Most parents whom I know and whom I see on CC – no matter how caring and loving they are – have little skill in helping their kids identify and pursue their interests. For instance, most parents whom I encounter seem to either view summer as a time for academically hard working students to simply relax from the rigors of the school year or to sign up for activities that would allow them to easily fulfill community service requirements or that might look good on college apps.</p>

<p>I don’t think that most parents realize that students learn about and develop their talents and career aspirations through summer and service activities, not just through formal coursework.</p>

[fendrock]

<p>Well, of course lying on your resume is never a good thing.</p>

<p>Some kids are also not especially reflective or articulate, which can certainly count against them in an interview situation.</p>

<p>I know my daughter has shown her dedication for dance through her determination and hours of taking classes. But if you asked her about it, you would probably not be bowled over by her response.</p>

<p>[I know we are getting way off topic here…]</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>“Some kids are also not especially reflective or articulate, which can certainly count against them in an interview situation.”</p>

<p>True, and if they are applying to a place like Harvard, which has an overabundance of outstanding candidates and values articulateness and having insight, not being able to express themselves could knock them out of competition.</p>

<p>On the other hand, I know some students who are quiet and in general shy, but who are quite articulate when talking about things that they deeply care about.</p>

[marite]

<p>Neither my S was asked what he did during summer, or what he learned on the trips abroad (taken since they were 3). Their summer activities and their travels abroad were all listed on the resumes they brought to the interviews.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>my concerns about these expensive programs that have cropped up, is that unless you have researched them fully & perhaps even know someone who has particpated, you don’t really know what you are paying for.</p>

<p>WHen I attended a weeklong camp with my daughters 8th grade class for example- there were 3 teachers going- enough parents for one for about every 10-12 kids & you would assume that would be barely enough supervision.</p>

<p>I had a group of about 12 13-14 year olds- we were particpating in an evening activity that invloved a scavenger type hunt over a good section of camp.</p>

<p>I had a very challenging group- from boys with ADHD, to a girl that swore she was a vampire and couldn’t go out in the sun.
As I was taking my group around to the activities, my vampire- who always was a straggler, wandered off-( she said she was going to the rest room and she never came back). SInce it was after dusk- I barely could see anyway & didn’t realize she was missing until a camp staffer found her and me.
We tried to locate the teachers but all three of them weren’t anywhere to be found and had their cell phones turned off.
We eventually located them over an hour later, but they didn’t really have a good story.
It all ended ok- at least if you consider making the girl stay for the whole week who didn’t want to go in the first place OK- but this was a public school function- with certified teachers who were in charge of middle school students with parents along.</p>

<p>An organization that doesn’t have parents on site supervising, may have even more extreme lapses in staffing or judgement that we never hear about until they are on 60 minutes.</p>

[Allmusic]

<p>For better or worse, there ARE kids taking these trips because they, or their parents, think these experiences will provide fodder for an application essay, or look “good” on the application itself.</p>

<p>When I asked a friend’s daughter what was the most interesting or fun part of her trip to China last summer, she stared at me kind of blankly, and mumbled a bit. Perhaps it was a life changing experience for her, but she certainly couldn’t articulate any part of it that was.</p>

<p>My son has spent 3-4 weeks at music camps, and exudes like these experiences are the best thing that have ever happened to him. Is it because he is pursuing a passionate interest, or is this response a personality trait? Does it matter if kids “get something” from these experiences? I would think so!</p>

<p>What about kids who stay home and “chill” for the summer. There are some of those too. Are they at a distinct disadvantage?</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>“What about kids who stay home and “chill” for the summer. There are some of those too. Are they at a distinct disadvantage?”</p>

<p>When it comes to in-state public colleges, probably no, because they are mainly numbers driven.</p>

<p>When it comes to the elite colleges, they aren’t looking for kids who chill over the summer, but for kids who are Type As who happily do something – whether that’s something like working a job (any job) , doing volunteer work, practicing their sport or instrument or doing some kind of self-directed project or research. </p>

<p>Note the word “happily.” Those colleges truly want the students whose ideal summer is doing something productive. Students whose ideal summer is spending most of the time relaxing playing videogames or going to the beach with friends aren’t the type of students who’d fit in the top colleges where students are intensely into academics and ECs. Frankly, most people would be miserable doing what Type As enjoy doing, so most people (including many very smart folks ) wouldn’t be happy at places like most top colleges.</p>

[doubleplay]

<p>I’ve been on selection committees for scholarships based on holistic, non-need based criteria. Personally, I don’t hold it against a student who has had the opportunities afforded by his or her affluent lifestyle (summer enrichment programs, overseas trips, etc). But neither do I hold it against the student who flips burgers all summer. In good conscience, I can’t give an advantage to someone who might have much more interesting and profound experiences, but those same experiences are not available to another student due to finances- it wouldn’t be fair. (BTW I won’t hold it against him either.) I can’t speak for everyone else, but given the choice between those two students, I’d have to look somewhere else on their application to make a decision.</p>

<p>I will say this- I am a stickler for supporting documentation or evidence. Given the choice between a student who claims to have 1000 hours of service, with vague evidence, and another who claims 200 hours with a journal showing specific dates and hours signed off by a team leader, I’ll pick the 200 hours everytime.</p>

<p>Also, I’ve come across students who do one or two big community service junkets during their entire hs career (usually the pricey summer things), which accounts for most of their hours. I’m probably going to get criticism for this, but those kind of students rarely get any points from me. I have a soft spot for the kids who get involved in ongoing local things because they come across as more committed, and I can more easily see them continuing that work into college and later. (I’m now ducking my head waiting for the bullets.)</p>

[Northstarmom]

<p>Doubleplay,
No bullets from me: I agree with you. In most cases, it is far easier to participate in a packaged service project out of the country than it is to participate in a local project that the student has to, for instance, drive themselves to and may also have to help organize.</p>

[jrzzmom]

<p>For another take on service tourism, check out <a href=“http://www.slate.com/id/2101215/[/url]”>http://www.slate.com/id/2101215/&lt;/a&gt;. </p>

<p>My first experience with these summer enrichment programs was as an alumni interviewer. One of the applicants had spent four weeks in Switzerland at a language program, but it was clear that there was little or no interaction with local culture, opportunity to be independent, or to learn any of the traditional lessons of travel. The required language portion of the program was about three hours a day. Instead, the group stayed in a college dorm (not with host families) with a few pre-arranged side trips they did as a group. He didn’t seem to have a single insightful thing to say about it. It was the one sour note on an otherwise shining resume–it didn’t hurt him, but it didn’t help either. On the other hand, I was also astounded at the number of kids who hadn’t traveled at all. These kids were all affluent, activities-driven achievers, but travel–even family travel–was not part of the program. Vacations, yes–crusies, Carribean resorts, skiing, Disney. Travel in the old-fashioned sense of the word, no. I would have loved to interview someone–anyone–who had traveled (domestically or internationally) and could talk with insight and enthusiasm about what they had seen.</p>