Monetary, intellectual, social value of HS summer experiences

Parent Cafe
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[quote]
To me, it seems that it is just parental feeding of further entitlement to kids with high expectations.[/quote</p>

<p>Arghhh. … . . What’s wrong with this? If parents can afford for their kids to go on expensive trips why is it wrong? Would it be wrong for the same parents to take the kids to a Red Sox game? </p>

<p>“Filthy” rich folks, unite!. We have nothing to lose but our anxieties of affluence.</p>

<p>NB: For the sake of CC discussions, “filthy rich” is defined as anyone in the top 5% income bracket.</p>

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<p>Oh, good. I am glad to see that I am fithy rich! Yee ha!</p>

<p>And I still wouldn’t send my kids on entitlement trips. The analogy to a Red Sox game? Puhleeze! :)</p>

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<p>What is an entitlement trip as opposed to any other kind of trip?</p>

<p>If you don’t have the money, going to a Red Sox game is a luxury. If you have the money, going on an “expensive” trip is what other folks would call it. You just call it going on a trip. That’s what I do. </p>

<p>I wish people would not be so judgmental about how others spend their money.</p>

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<p>Going to a ball game is expensive these days! As for the summer programs—some people collect Hummel figurines or antique trains. Some buy fancy cars. Some send their kids on trips. Eh. Why worry about it?</p>

<p>My younger one attends expensive music “camps” each summer–it’s an expected part of the CV for conservatory-bound kid. My daughter, on the other hand, spent one summer hiking around Canada with a language-immersion group. She also learned to rappel, orienteering, first aid, campfire cooking, general fieldcraft, rafting, canoeing, and kayaking (technical level). And she also learned that she could walk into a group of strangers, make friends, and work/live together for an extended period (you can obviously learn this part in other ways as well). All of which stood her in good stead when she left for college, and when she became a trip leader for her college’s orientation week as a sophomore. It also gave us a taste of being without her for the first time in 17 years. It wasn’t as expensive as Europe, but I thought it was money well spent. However, it’s not something to do so you can mention it on your college app.</p>

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That’s true - but the second paragraph in your opening post was about a month-long Thailand community service trip – quite likely the same one that my son did, though there are several outfits that offer basically the same thing. So you kind of lumped the two together. </p>

<p>I know one thing: AFS and YFU charge a hefty price, but they don’t do a whole lot for the kids beyond arranging transportation – they leave it to their affiliates in the host countries to select and arrange for the host families, and all along the way things can be quite disorganized, and amenities along the way can be minimal. </p>

<p>I think the reason for the disparity between what you pay and what you get is that AFS/YFU are nonprofit organizations that rely largely on volunteers, and they probably charge Americans a ton of money to subsidize their hosting and placement operation for students coming into the US from other countries. So I don’t know what the difference might be with some of the private outfits. </p>

<p>“Community service” for Thai trips usually means teaching English – English is taught, badly, in all the schools, so the kids really could use help from native English-speakers. </p>

<p>I see no problem at all with the idea of parents financing travel for their teens – I love to travel, and I have very fond and vivid memories of the summer after my senior year when my mom and I went to Europe. When my kids were younger, my dad & stepmom took them on a Mediterranean cruise - they visited Monaco and Herculeneum and Venice & Athens and Istanbul, traveling in style… it was fun, it was educational, but it was NOT character-building. So no - I don’t think it should be done to impress a college ad com – but I can see a family who has the money choosing to spend it that way. </p>

<p>You said in your opening post that “it looks like spoiled kids trying to have interesting experiences.” At least with my kid’s foreign exchange experiences, I was hoping for a little bit of unspoiling. Spending time living in a third world country is one way for teens to realize just how spoiled they are. We aren’t rich - my kids attended public schools, we live in a very small house in a downscale neighborhood and drive ratty old cars … but my son’s host family’s house could have fit inside our living room, the toilet was a hole in the floor and the shower was a bucket and hose, and meals were prepared in the rice cooker. By American standards my kids would have considered themselves as among the less fortunate - they learned from living abroad that Americans have it pretty good. That my kids both ended up in homes where they grew very fond of their host families was an added bonus: they had less, life was tougher, and they found themselves wishing they could stay longer. </p>

<p>So my point is – I do see value in spending money to give my own spoiled kids a real-life encounter with people who lead very different lives. “Spoiled kids having interesting experiences” is a lot better than “spoiled kids remaining spoiled.”</p>

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<p>Driver, thanks.</p>

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<p>marite:</p>

<p>“I wish people would not be so judgmental about how others spend their money.”</p>

<p>This excellently sums up this thread (and unfortunately, many others on CC). Thank you!</p>

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<p>Calmom, this Thai community service trip was/is through an “adventure company” for youth. Slightly different than AFU I think, but who knows.</p>

<p>People are on message boards are judgemental about absolutely everything, from college choices to child rearing to politics. Why should there be any less judgement in how people spend money? I think the nature of message boards makes people appear more judgemental than they are in real life.</p>

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<p>Allmusic:</p>

<p>Being in the top 5% income bracket means that you can afford to live better than 95% of the population. If you care to have 95% pass judgment on how you spend your money, be my guest.</p>

<p>But to return to my question, what is an entitlement trip as opposed to some other trip? Does going to Disney World qualify? Would traveling from the East Coast to the West coast qualify? For many, it is just as expensive as going to Europe. My kid spent two summers in France. We like to spend some time in New Hampshire or VT. I don’t really see the difference between the two kinds of vacation.</p>

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<p>Marite,</p>

<p>I take my responsibility here in the top 5% rather seriously, and my husband and I are thriftier than anyone we know in our station in life. I was poor as a churchmouse for years in graduate school, and as they’ve said, “I’ve been rich and I’ve been poor and I like rich better.” </p>

<p>We have no housecleaners, lawn service, we don’t take out dinner every other night, I still cut my daughter’s hair. I don’t mention this to congratulate myself, but only so you will better understand my perspective.</p>

<p>It isn’t that we don’t spend money on things we deem important; we pay a small fortune in musical lessons/camps and private school, as well as the trips that come as part of being part of elite music groups. But, music and education are important to us.</p>

<p>Travel is also important to me. I think there is huge value in learning about different people, ways of life, different cultures. But I guess we come at it from a different perspective than the teen tour. I wouldn’t see the intrinsic value, for the money outlaid. We could never justify a $6-10K expense so that one of our kids could galavant around Europe with a bunch of other kids, with no service, musical performance, visiting of family, etc. as part of it. I would want more interaction with native culture, perhaps more learning (i.e. I see great value to jr year abroad). When I went to Europe I took a backpack, slept in train stations, and was there three months; I spent $2K and it was my own money (Ok, this was 25 years ago, but the same thing could apply in today’s dollars).</p>

<p>Again, I will own that opinion as just mine, and I am not expecting anyone to agree with me. It isn’t that I don’t think other people can spend their money as they see fit; a teen tour type of expenditure just isn’t something we would do is all. I apologize if I sounded judgemental.</p>

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<p>I am less thrifty than you in certain respects, and probably more in others. That is besides the point. </p>

<p>My point is that when we go on vacation in New Hampshire, I do not feel the need to justify it on educational grounds, or on the value of my two urban kids getting to know how others live, yadda, yadda, and I don’t see the need to justify a trip abroad either. To me, a vacation abroad and a vacation two hours away from our home are essentially the same. </p>

<p>I let S1 go to France for a couple of summers and took my Ss along with me on several trips to Europe. Since I took them as young as 3, I can’t even claim that they learned a great deal from many of these trips. I could afford it, and that was all that mattered.</p>

<p>The only problem I have is with the delusion that some of these trips will impress college adcoms. I don’t have a problem with the expense per se. Each family must decide for itself what it can or cannot afford.</p>

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<p>Allmusic, it really doesn’t matter what entity has sponsored the trip. AFS charged my son $4500 to go to Thailand, so in any case its pricey. It was a learning experience not because of who sponsored it but because of the people he met and the things he did, and the experience of being with other American teens from different parts of the country was also beneficial. Although my kids have had an opportunity to travel on family vacations as they were growing up, we lived in the same town, same house since my son started kindergarten - he attended K-8 elementary school within walking distance from our home, then a high school a few blocks away. So for him - anything that took him out of the little suburban bubble he grew up in would probably have been enriching.</p>

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“Impress” may not be the right word, but for my son, the trip at least gave him something interesting to write about. He certainly went off to Thailand with the idea in mind that he would get a college essay out of it – it wasn’t that he wanted to impress the colleges (he didn’t talk at all about the community service in his essay) – it was that he perceived his life at home as being boring and mundane. He wanted to see and do things that would be special and different. </p>

<p>He did not go to Thailand <em>because</em> he wanted a college essay – it didn’t happen that way at all. Rather, he simply refused to start working on a college essay before he left, because he felt sure he would have better things to write about when he came back.</p>

<p>I do think it helped. Not because we bought him an experience, but because he did write an essay that said something about himself. The ‘displaced person’ theme (kid far away from home, adjusting to a foreign culture) is fodder for a good, self-revelatory essay. And it also gave him something interesting to talk about on college interviews.</p>

<p>I realize that traveling teenagers have become so common that the ad coms probably are tired of seeing these essays - and it would be devastating if the student brags about the experience – but it sure beats the “death of the family pet” or the “inspirational coach” theme. </p>

<p>So while I agree that the fact of the trip itself won’t help, I think that increasing the breadth of the young person’s experience does help. </p>

<p>It may have more value for a kid like my son, who was bookish and went to a small academically-oriented public high school that really didn’t offer much in the way of ECs. He was a very good student in a very ordinary community at a very ordinary school. So it was kind of an accent added to his profile to make him stand out a little. Whether he needed it or not I don’t know – his grades and test scores alone were enough for most of the colleges he applied to – but I think it made him feel better about himself. It wasn’t so much that he needed to impress someone, but that he needed something in his own life so that he didn’t feel like a total nebbish.</p>

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<p>Calmom:</p>

<p>Your son’s reasons for wanting to go to Thailand are as good as any I’ve read!</p>

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<p>Allmusic: </p>

<pre><code>Thanks for your original post. Without it, we would not have had this engrossing discussion. Having reread your first post, I don’t think you were being all that judgemental, just incredulous.

Let me guess.

You were probably raised by parents who, like mine, grew up during the Depression and the idea that one would spend that kind of money so THE KID could travel and enjoy themselves, with no specific educational benefit other than the experience just kind of boggles the mind. I agree with your incredulity. We spent nearly as much on S1’s pre-college program, but I rationalized that he would also get college credit for the time he spent; when I mentioned the cost to my mother, she nearly choked. My parents have money, they are very comfortable, but they still act as though it could all disappear tomorrow. Stocks crash. Real estate stagnates or falls. And don’t get them started on inflation. My mom still saves teabags and wrapping paper to use again; dad can afford a luxury car but the 10-year-old Ford Taurus is fine. It’s actually very hard for them to spend money even though they have it, and some of that, to a much lesser degree, has rubbed off on me. (And on you, if I’m right.)
</code></pre>

<p>Sometimes I think we’re a little incredulous that we’ve reached a level of affluence where we can even consider spending thousands of dollars for summer language programs and computer camps, a level of affluence where we can have a neighbor who just bought their daughter a new Range Rover for her 16th birthday. I don’t mean to be judgemental, but they are the same age as I am and didn’t their parents grow up during the Depression??? Didn’t they grow up with the same financial scare stories I did? Didn’t they hear about the Rainy Day, over and over?? Maybe not. </p>

<p>Well, that’s my armchair analysis. I agree with others who posted that parents should make decisions about these summer program investments on the basis of personal growth for the student, and not on any consideration for how college adcoms will regard them. </p>

<p>Again, I’m not dissing them. I’m just wondering, didn’t they have Depression-era parents who believed in squirrelling away every dime? Some of that must have rubbed off on me, ospare dollar and basically didn’t spend anything without on eaagwewho alsoeoIt’s just that coming from the post-war, little-pink-houses, middle-class upbringing I had, I find it amazing that we have reached this level of affluence. We know people who where we know people who do this, who can spend $10,000 so one kid – not the whole family – can go to Europe. n’ued9nggmiorlI ObvMy parents would not even spend this kind of money on themselvesckie Even nowAlien. I am amazed, really, at the money we have spent on summer experiences for my sons when there is tdaml…eanif were teens during the, Were your parents Depression babiesAnd I think I know why. If your parents, like mine, were raised during the Depression, the idea of spending that kind of money – $7,000, $10,000 – for reeDeThough feel free to tos.Asewe have come to a level of affluence (why does that always sound like “rich” to meweht hdleOI just reread your OP and I don’t thinkwell</p>

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<p>Well, yes, Jazzymom. My situation is even more pronounced, as my grandparents escaped Nazi Germany during WWII, completely penniless, so my entire way of life growing up was washing out baggies, reusing paper bags and wrapping paper (which I still do, much to everyone’s chagrin), putting out three pieces of cheese if there were three people at lunch (God forbid you put out four!). It was how my grandparents did it, and how my mother learned to do it, and me by example. I still have terrible trouble with waste and overconsumption.</p>

<p>My parents are also now comfortable, but also are incredulous at the money we spend for music lessons and summer camp experiences. Those kinds of expenditures were unheard of for them (and us, as their children). If we wanted to take piano, we were lucky if the music teacher from school came to the house. Traveling to music schools…seeking out the best teacher in the city? Out of their realm of consciousness.</p>

<p>It may be that some people grew up with more affluence, and thus their attitude about money is simply different as a result. However, I know that my friend whose DD went a summer trip to China grew up poorer than I did (because I was really plain old middle class), so maybe that argument doesn’t hold.</p>

<p>But while my children have many more experiences than my siblings and I had, I refuse for them to adopt an attitude that they “deserve” what people they know have; that because friends get Range Rovers (yes, we know kids like that too) for their 16th birthdays, or fancy European vacations, that they will too. The cars will come (some beater first car that they will buy, like DH and I once did) and the vacations (not the ones with Mom and Dad, but the ones they pay for), all in due time.</p>

<p>Just a different way of doing things, and yes, I understand you Jazzymom, very well.</p>

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<p>What is wrong with a kid going on a travel program or to an overnight camp that is costly and even if it is not considered to be “educational” by some? What is wrong with just going for the experience out of interest in wanting to have that experience? Must every trip or program be educational or have merit for college admissions? If one has the money or chooses to spend the money on their children’s summer experiences, so what? Not everyone weighs whether it will help with college admissions or be of some great eductional merit. What if my kid wanted to see the country which takes an extended period of time that we can’t take as a family? What is wrong with a teen trip that expands her travel horizons? Travel is the interest. I don’t see the problem with it. Must it be community service or have some big lessons attached? What about expensive overnight camps? I loved going to these and so do my kids. Camp has been a big part of their growing up. They have interests and we found summer activities to enrich their interest areas. Nothing more. And we are not rich by the way. My children receive significant financial aid for college. We are surely not poor either. We do what we can afford. We happen to put a lot of value in using our money on our children…their activities, their education, etc. Others put their money into other things. I don’t see what is wrong with a teen tour if the child is very interested in it and researches programs like this that appeal to her interests? My kids didn’t say, “what can I do this summer that colleges will like.” Rather, each summer they said what they wanted to do and then we researched programs where they could do it…be it performing arts camps or travel programs. It began with an interest. We paid for programs that appealed to their interests. I could care less if colleges liked what they picked or not. They indeed documented how they spent their summers. </p>

<p>As a college interviewer for a selective college, I also ask candidates how they spent their summers. I don’t have a feeling that X activity is better than Y activity and I certainly don’t put down kids who can afford more costly activities. I just want to see someone spending their time doing something of interest that is worthwhile and with some passion and dedication. It could be free or costly, I don’t care. It could be earning money. The only scenario that does NOT impress are the kids who demonstrate no interest, no initiative, or wile away their summers hanging out. There is no “right” EC or “right” summer experience. I don’t care the “what”. As an interviewer, I care more about the interest and devotion and level of participation. It is readily apparent if a kid is into what he is doing compared to doing it cause he “had to”. I recall interviewing a girl who spent several summers at CTY for writing and spoke so passionately about it. I know my kids speak so passionately about their summer programs as well. I interviewed a girl who trains and performs with a summer circus and spoke with passion about it. In all these cases, my own kids included, their summer activities tied into long held interests that went beyond the summer. I could care less what it costs. People do what they can afford. </p>

<p>While I agree that selective schools take a special interest in low income families and first generation and all that, it is not as if they are shunning well to do families or kids who have gone to expensive prep schools and have done expensive enrichment activities or travel. Kids of either sort are accepted all the time. The thing that either type of candidate can possess that is attractive is documented interests, commitment to activities, significant contributions to activities, and so on. Not everyone does thing to impress colleges. Those who do things out of interest, whether costly or free, are attractive candidates. My children have LOVED all of their summer programs and for that, it was money well spent. I don’t care what it had to do with college admissions. It didn’t. They did these things because they wanted to and we made it a priority to come up with the money to pay for them.</p>

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<p>I don’t think that many kids I know feel they “deserve” anything; I know my kids do not. I know parents who gave a brand new BMW to their child upon graduation from high school. We did not–not even the beat-up family car. But the parents felt they could afford it. I have no idea whether their own parents had lived through the Great Depression or not.</p>

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<p>Just in time to add food for thought:
Students do good, look good abroad:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2006/06/22/students_do_good_look_good_abroad/[/url]”>http://www.boston.com/news/education/k_12/articles/2006/06/22/students_do_good_look_good_abroad/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Forget college resume building. What bollocks. I am insulted every time someone suggests that as my motive. When I send my boys to camp or on trips abroad, I have a long range goal in mind.</p>

<p>When I was growing up, my dad gave us the continual beat down: Get a job! Get a job! Get a job! From the age of 11 onwards, I worked like crazy during the summers–with maybe two weeks at Girl Scout camp and two weeks on the beach with the family. I don’t look back on those $1.10 per hour days with fondness. They were a giant waste of time.</p>

<p>Then I went to college and again, worked like mad. I went overseas for the first time when I was 23. My mother took me to a wedding because my father didn’t want to go.</p>

<p>The next time I went overseas, I moved to Asia for two years. Included in the compensation package: $5000 worth of airfare per year per person–meant to be used for home visits. We never went home. We saw the world–and I loved every minute of it. I dreamt of the day for so long.</p>

<p>At the end of that two year stint, we awarded ourselves a Rome Prize.</p>

<p>Then, my first boy was born when I was 28–and those carefree travel days came to abrupt end. The real period of work started. Time to make some serious money. 23 to 28. Five years–out of 70?</p>

<p>We travelled extensively with the boys–but it isn’t the same. Boys have a limited capacity for art and churches and the marvels of the Renaissance. I did take them down an Amazonian tributary in a canoe and I did let them go crocodile hunting in the dead of night in the jungle–but it was bloody hard on my nerves.</p>

<p>So I have taken a different course. At age 49, my opinion is that there is plenty of time for work. PLENTY!! Decade upon decade. </p>

<p>There isn’t enough time for travel.</p>

<p>Since the age of 9, my boys have been to camp or travelling experiences–not for the resume–for the sheer enjoyment of exploring the world and as a lesson on how to live in a global society. Oh the places they have been! My friends say they would like to die and be reborn as my sons. They learned to canoe in the wilderness for weeks on end. They learned what happens when you run out of money in Zanzibar or lose your bank card in Beijing. They learned languages and customs. They helped to build primary school facilities in African villages. They have done this with supervision and without.</p>

<p>My older son has his first job on Capital Hill this summer–as a rising junior. Guess what? Buckling down to a job isn’t that hard. He’s got it sorted. He’s a clever boy. </p>

<p>His superiors admire his travel experience–as do most of his peers. My husband travelled the world before I met him and it was one of the most attractive things about him–his understanding of the wider picture. My sons enjoy the same admiration from their peers.</p>

<p>One of my son’s bosses spent a few years in Africa. He enjoys sending projects my son’s way because he enjoys chatting about the experience with a compatriot of sorts.</p>

<p>In the end, my sons are likely to get 11 years of travelling (ages 17 to 28) versus my 5. That is worth every penny in my opinion. Like their parents, they will talk about those travels for the rest of their lives and keep up with friends met along the way. Those travels will inform their attempts to live or do business abroad–as our short travels informed our lives.</p>

<p>On the other hand, you can’t beat the value of music camp.</p>