<p>I understand what you are stating, but if you look at Obama’s age, he was 30, when he joined, very different then being a child and dragged to church</p>
<p>And I was 45 when I left.</p>
<p>“it took you 20 yrs to decide that you were uncomfortable in your church?”</p>
<p>Hmm? I thought “the big deal” Wright speech was fairly recent. Do you mean to say he made this speech 20 years ago, do you mean to say he knew OBama would be running against Hillary back in 1988? Man, that’s some preminition of the future… ;)</p>
<p>I just find this sooooo funny, are you folks really really serious? </p>
<p>I just read where McCain’s great great grandfather didn’t open a door for a lady… man I’m sure not going to vote for McCain now… jeese how could he be assoicated with someone without any manners… yup, no vote from me…</p>
<p>And if that’s not enough, I heard that his pastors brothers cousins roommate sisters uncle broke wind once in a room and blamed it on the dog. definately not going to get my vote… ;)</p>
<p>Wrights speeches have been fairly reason, the chickens coming home to roost was 6 days after 9/11.</p>
<p>Poet; you’ve written so much that you need to keep ours in perspective. Check out your post #68:</p>
<p>I said: It obviously was impressed enough to write about about it.</p>
<p>You siad: Oh yeah, for sure—That there “Audacity of Hope” book is full of racial hatred and divisiveness. It fully reflects the teachings of the man who inspired it…</p>
<p>That is why I replied that him writing the book had nothing to do with the book having racism in it. It had to do with proving the point that Obama can’t use the excuse that he never heard Wright say any of these controversial things. The truth is; Obama has most definitely heard Wright say these and many other racial and separatist remarks. Obama has known exactly what type of man Wright is. The fact is; Obama until now hasn’t had any problems with Wright’s remarks, beliefs, and racial views. </p>
<p>Now, whether it’s because Obama believes in the Rodney King principle of “Can’t we all just get along”; and therefor allows Wright to say those things because he’s naive and believes that everyone should be able to say such things; OR, it’s because he too may agree with Wright and believe on some lines with what he’s been preaching for 20 years. I guess that is what is to be decided by each voter.</p>
<p>b&p:
The chicken coming home to roost: Wright was quoting a former ambassador whose name I can’t recall. And it was in a “faith footnote” which I take to mean is a digression from the sermon, a parenthesis.</p>
<p>Christcorp:
If I recall correctly, Obama said he had not heard the very specific things that were quoted. This does not mean he had never heard Wright say objectionable things–which he acknowledged he did-- just those very comments. It may be somewhat weaselly of him to have made that first answer, but not necessarily untruthful.</p>
<p>I also read that at the time of Wright’s appointment, Trinity’s numbers were going down. The Board searched for a minister capable of revitalizing the church and settled on Wright. He really increased membership and attendance. Clearly, his parishioners liked what he had to say. And they were and are the people with whom Obama was working closely. As some have pointed out, Wright must have made many sermons over the course of his ministry, and there must have been many more faith footnotes. But I also think that the vast majority of the sermons must have been in the same mold as the Audacity of Hope one: inspiring, uplifting, erudite, and totally within the prophetic tradition,</p>
<p>What you believe his sermons were about for the last 20 years is just assumptions. We weren’t there, therefor we have no idea what his sermons were about. The first self defense mechanism when it comes to the human psyche is to rationalize and transfer blame to someone else. Throughout history, many a people have been mobilized in accord against a common foe. That is what has made unions powerful, military, countries, etc… Organize a group of people that can rationalize their plight; have them find someone else to blame; then band together in protest. For all we know, Wright’s message for the last 20 years was feeding on the black community and their struggles; finding the “White Government” to blame; and keeping them organized.</p>
<p>Now, for those who think I am insinuating, I’m not. That is a totally baseless possibility of Reverend Wright and his ministry. My point is; you can’t also assume that his entire ministry for the last 35 years has been all in the mold as the Audacity of Hope one: inspiring, uplifting, erudite, and totally within the prophetic tradition, Just because he is a “Reverend” doesn’t mean anything. Just because he claims to be a christian, doesn’t mean anything. Remember; the “Kool-Aid” thread that’s been discussed? Jim Jones was also a “Reverend”.</p>
<p>marite; I know you are trying to give Obama and Wright the benefit of the doubt. That’s fine. The problem is however, is that Obama is the one causing and perpetuating “the doubt” that needs the benefit of. The trinity church that Wright preached from and that Obama spent the last 20 years with, self proclaims itself a black congregation. They claim to be an “African People” and TRUE to their native land; Africa. Now I’m not saying that the people of Trinity shouldn’t be proud of their ancestry. They should be. But being proud of your ancestry and trying to re-write it and change history can not be done. The trinity church is very proud of being a “Black” church. Not saying they wouldn’t allow a non-black to attend a church service; just that it’s not what that church traditionally caters to.</p>
<p>The church preaches the bible; I assume" from the perspective of people who have experienced segregation and racism. Yes, SOME of the people who attend that church have had these experiences. But preaching sermons with this as your commonality is definitely not good. The commonality we should be having in our churches and country is our nationality; our constitution; our individual economic potential; our shared family values; etc… When the thing you concentrate that you have in common is how a predominant “White” government and society has segregated and discriminated against you, then the rationalization of all your problems and transferral of blame for all your pain and suffering; happens just as I mentioned in the opening paragraph or two. </p>
<p>Again; just because the Trinity United Church of Christ has as their main statement of faith, doesn’t mean that that is all they preach of and discuss. It also doesn’t mean that they are still holding the predominant “White Government” and people responsible for their individual circumstances. But by reading their statements; hearing Wright’s comments; hearing Obama’s side stepping of the issue; and all the other controversy; I think that it is possible that this church could be a bit prejudice and that after 20 years of attending services, it’s possible that Obama believes along the same lines.</p>
<p>Again, I’m not saying that any of this is true. But there is absolutely nothing to prove that it isn’t. It’s up to Obama to convince us of his beliefs, to what extent he was influenced by wright, and how any of this will or won’t affect his ability to lead. It means absolutely NOTHING to me if any of you try and tell me about the church, about Obama, about Wright, etc… You aren’t Obama. You words are just opinions and assumptions; just like mine are. There is no more proof of your opinions than there are of mine. The fact remains; enough questions have been raised through verbals and innuendos. It’ up to Obama to clarify. And ONLY Obama. And no, he hasn’t clarified half of the questions out there. And if you think he has answered ALL QUESTIONS in a satisfactory manner, then good for you. You are probably very happy with what he has said and can live with it. Excellent. Sorry many others don’t feel the same way. Of course, we can resort back to the rationalization and believe that anyone who isn’t an Obama supporter are stubborn Hillary supporters, or insensitive narrow minded conservation republican McCain supporters. And therefor, they never would have voted for Obama anyway; so their posts and opinions aren’t important. Many will believe this. They can’t understand that there’s a lot of people from all the different political parties that actually can THINK FOR THEMSELVES. That aren’t swayed by a pretty suit and nice speech. That aren’t impressed because she use to be 1st lady and he husband was president; or that he spent years as a prisoner of war. See, some of us can vote who we believe is right. Not so we can be part of the “Band wagon”. But because we DON’T HAVE TO BE part of the “Band Wagon”. We are individuals. Free thinking. Anyway; Obama hasn’t answered the questions needing answers. None of the Obama supporters can answer the questions because you have no idea what the right answer is. So, we just wait to see what Obama will do.</p>
<p>Christcorp:</p>
<p>Why does Obama have to answer again and again what his beliefs are? He has written two very candid memoirs, giving us far more insights into his life and beliefs than I can remember any presidential candidate ever doing. He has repudiated the statements that were made by Wright and were found to be objectionable. He distanced himself from the award to Farrakhan when it was made back in January. Giuliani’s lifelong friendship with the alleged child molester Alan Placa has not elicited half as much outrage as Wright’s statements.</p>
<p>So Wright’s congregation is overwhelmingly but not exclusively African-American. That is why he focuses on the real African-American experience; just as an overwhelmingly Boston Irish Catholic church is more likely to discuss the Irish experience. My MIL once walked into our neighborhood Catholic church, only to find that the services were being conducted in Portuguese. </p>
<p>I looked up the Wikipedia entry for Rev. Jeremiah Wright. It is definitely biased in his favor. But while I find the use of D…n America hyperbolic, it is not out of line in the context, nor out of the mainstream of prophetic preaching (both AA and non-AA). The one statement that was totally out of line (and yet could have easily been overlooked when (not) heard in the context of a long sermon was the one on HIV. </p>
<p>As I said, I am not minority or poor. But as a foreign student, I was struck by the experience of two college friends. The woman friend was of Polish descent. She fell in love with my (later) husband’s college roommate, who was African and from a rather elite background. He was then pursuing a Ph.D. in economics (and went on to work for the World Bank). None of that mattered to her parents. She was disowned by her father for wanting to marry a n… Her father was so upset that he had a stroke but refused to allow her to visit him in hospital; just as he refused to meet his grandson when he was born. That would be around the time when Rev. Wright began his ministry with only 87 people. So when Wright talks to his congregation about reasons for despair, or about the challenges they have faced, he can draw on their real life experiences with racism.</p>
<p>No, we cannot know what Wright has said in 30 years of giving sermons. But why assume that it’s all been negative? Why not think that the majority of the sermons were like The Audacity of Hope? That, to me, is a more likely scenario.</p>
<p>One interesting thing about the Wright controversy is the importance accorded to words as opposed to deeds. Whereas Obama is being criticized for being full of hot air and few real accomplishments or program specifics (wrongly, in my opinion), the actual accomplishments of Wrights’ ministry are being overlooked in favor of his rhetoric. So if words matter, Obama’s matter.</p>
<p>marite; I appreciate you wanting to explain Obama. But you can’t, do don’t try. You asked; why does Obama have to answer again and again what his beliefs or position is? WHY? Because he hasn’t done so to my satisfaction. This is POLITICS. Do NOT TELL ME about his BOOKS. In order to vote for someone, I shouldn’t HAVE TO READ HIS BOOK to find out who he is. He should be able to tell the voter via news conferences, debates, interviews, etc… who he is and what his positions are. So, for the sake of the rest of the election process, FORGET HE EVER WROTE A BOOK. It means absolutely NOTHING to me or the vast majority of voters.We don’t have time to read every book he, clinton, or McCain has every written to try and decipher what their beliefs and positions are. That is just rhetoric.</p>
<p>Obama hasn’t explained himself to me enough. If he has to you, then great. You are in great shape to make a decision. Sorry, but for me he hasn’t. If he does, to my satisfaction, then I will have more information to make a decision with. If he doesn’t, then that too will impact my decision. Either way, it’s up to Obama to explain himself satisfactorily. It’s not up to you or his supporters to try and explain him. As I said, you aren’t Obama and your words are just opinions and assumptions. No better and no worse than mine. </p>
<p>I don’t assume that everything wright has said is negative. Nor do I believe that Obama believes in line with everything negative that Wright has said. But I do believe that enough questions have been raised through all these innuendos that Obama has to explain himself more than he has. Enough questions have been raised where I can’t just give the benefit of the doubt. Reading the Trinity website, listening to interviews, listening to responses, etc… I have too many questions to give him the benefit of the doubt,.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>A point all of you denigrating Obama would do well to take to heart. While you seem to think the assumption that Obama never heard anything objectionable is far-fetched, at the same time all kinds of people on this board are giving Obama all kinds of crap based on the assumption that because Reverend Wright said a few ridiculous things it must have been constant and Obama must have heard it at some point. That is just as big an assumption. For me, I give him the benefit of the doubt based on the statement he made (that he hadn’t heard these things personally but was aware that Wright occasionally said some bad stuff). So unless you’re agreeing with me, you must be making the positive assumption that Obama was lying and heard this stuff before. Which is it?</p>
<p>Christcorp:</p>
<p>Fine. Let’s agree to disagree.</p>
<p>1of42:</p>
<p>I agree with your interpretation.</p>
<p>For those who care to try to understand, rather than just be offended, there was a rather sensitive article, originally from the Chicago Tribune, in the LA Times online today.</p>
<p>[Obama</a> pastor’s words spring from complex tradition - Los Angeles Times](<a href=“Putting a pastor's words into context”>Putting a pastor's words into context)</p>
<p>The problem is; there are some people that possibly feel so guilt ridden, I guess about their ancestors and the black ancestry, that they give a level of rationalizing to what Wright has said and Obama’s “neutrality” on the issue. That’s fine. I can appreciate that. Blacks in this country, more so the past, has had to go through a lot of hell. Even today, blacks run into adversity throughout society.</p>
<p>The problem is; I can’t be empathetic about that. It really means absolutely NOTHING to me. Not because I am insensitive, but because I am not black and I am only 2nd generation American. There’s no way I can “Know what it’s like”. </p>
<p>What I’m trying to say is that I know of a lot of problems my grand parents had. My mother’s side came over from Italy. They came here through ellis island during WWII without any money, not speaking the language, being treated like trash by many that were already here. There’s just as much name calling and dislike of the Italians as with any other culture throughout time. My father’s side of the family were German-Jews who also sold everything they had and used that to bribe and buy their way out of Germany during WWII. They too didn’t have the greatest time in the world moving to a new country and starting over. No money, not knowing the language, etc…</p>
<p>Now, I’m not trying to compare the immigrants of the 20th century with the blacks enslaved in the 17th and 18th and 19th centuries. They were forcibly taken from their homes and forced to be slaves. The immigrants of the 20th century came voluntarily. I also understand the injustices blacks have gone through beyond slavery into the 20th century. And for some people, they will say that blacks continue to have injustices. That is where I start to have issues. I DID NOT HAVE THE PROBLEMS that my grandparents did. Yes, I had the racial slurs, name calling, gang issues, fights, etc… But they didn’t compare to my what my grand parents in Germany, Italy, or trying to start fresh in a new country had. The blacks today also have never had the problems that their grand parents, great, and great-great-great grandparents had. That’s not to say they haven’t had some problems, but it doesn’t compare. That was then and this is now. I honestly don’t believe that anyone today can’t make for themselves what they want. I was born and raised in the Manhattan, Bronx, Jersey City, and Newark area. I’ve also lived all around the country and overseas. I’m pleased to say that outside of inner cities, problems with the color of your skin or last name aren’t as big a deal. Yes, they do exist, just not as big a deal.</p>
<p>So, what does this have to do with my “problem” with Obama? My problem is from what I’ve read about the trinity church; their website; their interviews; the allegations, etc…, I believe that the trinity church is holding their community in the past. They keep talking about what happened to the black people in the past. They keep pressing the atrocities of the past. I don’t believe that a person should forget the past or pretend it never happened; but a time comes when you have to say to hell with the past. I am in control of my present and future. That is how I got out of poverty and the inner city. That is how anyone can change their life if they want to. Trying to place blame on anyone is pure garbage. To try and place that blame on a government or system is even more of a scape goat because there’s no way to hold accountability. If a person is truly a spiritual leader and has their community’s best interests at heart, then they would help them overcome today’s barriers. Help them fight today’s injustices. Stop living in the past. Now, my question is; being I am totally against what Reverend Wright preaches; (He can’t justify it by throwing in a couple of passages by Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Ringo). He has established a certain “TONE”. So, what about Obama? Does he live in the past? Does he believe that aids, poverty of the black community; black men in prison; black teens getting pregnant at 15; drug use; and any other issue that the Black community faces is the fault of the dominant White government or because of the last 300 years? Or, does he believe that each person; white, black, hispanic, asian, jewish, muslim, christian, male, woman, etc… has the ability inside of each of themselves to control their destiny? </p>
<p>This is the type of candidate I want. Someone who forces each of us to become accountable for our actions. Expose the injustices that occur today and gather others to fight them. Don’t keep living in the past with excuses. The truth is; the majority of kids who wind up in trouble, going to jail, on drugs, pregnant, etc… don’t do so because they are black, hispanic, poor, or “The Man” is doing it to them. The majority of the kids are like this is because their parents are TERRIBLE at raising these kids. They are terrible parents. And our society doesn’t know how to help people parent. You need training to get a driver’s license; training to work; training to legally take a raft down certain rivers. But you don’t need training to spread your legs and have kids. So, being I think Reverend Wright is a totally Wrong; and does not get any type of excuse because he grew up during the civil rights movement and has a different perspective on racism; I need to know what Obama’s future way of thinking is. If it is anywhere in line with the live in the past mentality of his church, then he is not anyone I want as president.</p>
<p>Christcorp - your new “best post” (#93).</p>
<p>Read an article earlier titled, “Hate explained is Hate Nevertheless”. Can’t find the link right now, but the title pretty much says it all. </p>
<p>I do think this issue is more about Obama’s actions - or lack of them - than Wright… But it has opened the door for interesting discourse (not the least of which has been yours, CC).</p>
<p>I honestly don’t think the issue is his lack of action in leaving the church. It’s whether he should have had to leave the church in the first place.</p>
<p>The church wasn’t racist, they never say anybody is inferior to anybody</p>
<p>I highly doubt that you can make the argument that the thousands of members of the church must all hate America, i don’t think you can make the argument that Rev. Wright hates America, because he never said he hated America. </p>
<p>Do I think wright was wrong? On some things yes. When he is wrong can i understand where he’s coming from? on some things yes. Do i think he is a bad person? No. </p>
<p>Do i think that anybody who attends that church is any worse than anybody who is friends with somebody who has told a racist/sexist joke in front of them? Definitely not. </p>
<p>I also don’t think HRC is in any position to comment on Obama’s pastor. I know that if most women were in her position, knowing what we know, Bill Clinton would not be THEIR husband…</p>
<p>I find this discussion utterly boring. Clearly Obama isn’t Jeremiah Wright. He doesn’t believe what Wright believes. Let’s concentrate on important issues. Jeremiah Wright isn’t running for anything. His church is full of very well educated professional African Americans who are working to improve their communities. People don’t take these off the wall comments seriously. I think people who are not still concentrating on Wright’s comments are people who had no plans to vote for Obama in the first place.</p>
<p>IMPW; you are absolutely 100% correct. Wright isn’t running for president. And if he and the church that Obama spent 20 years at had never been brought up, it probably wouldn’t be an issue. So you are correct, lets concentrate on Obama.</p>
<p>But, in order to concentrate on Obama, I have to know about him. (Please everyone, don’t tell me to read his books. That’s lame.) When I read his website and bio, it’s pretty short. Born of an African man and a girl from Kansas. Not sure if his father and mother were ever married, but that’s not important. At least to me.</p>
<p>Obama grew up in Hawaii and Indonesia. He later on moved to New York City. Where he eventually went to Columbia University. He graduated in 1983; took a couple of years off and worked as a community organizer. Realized he couldn’t do as much good as he wanted to there. Went to law school at Harvard and graduated in 1991. Spent a whole 5 years as a civil rights lawyer and a professor. (Nothing wrong with being a civil rights lawyer, so long as the goal is to promote equality among the races and not trying to win restitution.) He then got elected to the Illinois senate for 8 years. After that, he got elected to the US Senate when he spent less than 2 years and is now running for president of the United States.</p>
<p>Ok; that’s it. That’s his entire life biography. I showed his entire life in 1 paragraph. Most of which came from his own website. Before this whole Wright issue, my complaint was that Obama has absolutely nothing for me to base an opinion on his capabilities as President of the United States. He hasn’t done anything. </p>
<p>Now; I find out that the spiritual leader that he has the utmost respect for. Someone he compares to an uncle and family. Someone who married him, baptized his daughter, and has been on his political advisory staff; is someone that “I believe” is holding to the past and is keeping down his community. Obama is 46 years old. Half of his life just about; and 2/3 of his adult life has been influenced by this man. Now I am suppose to believe that he would still make a great president. I don’t know about that.</p>
<p>Before; I was just concerned that he had no experience at all. Now, I find that any experience he may have had as an adult “may” have been influenced by such a man as Wright. That is why I say that Obama needs to explain himself more. He doesn’t have to explain Wright or anything to do with the Trinity church. He needs to explain about his future for America. HOW he will do things. WHAT he wants to do. This “WE CAN” stuff doesn’t cut it. Obama, if elected, will be the president of the United States. That means ALL OF THE CITIZENS. Not just the black citizens. Not just the people in his church. How is Obama going to help ALL CITIZENS of the country? Sorry, but I don’t see any answers. I see a lot of “Dream” posts. I see a lot of news bites. I haven’t seen anything that I consider concrete on the matter. He basically was able to dodge the topic prior to Wright. Now that it has exposed him as possibly being influenced by Wright, he now has to make a stand on what he believes and what he can do for our country. He can’t get away with voting “PRESENT” any longer. He wants to be president, then he needs to get tough and stand up.</p>
<p>"That means ALL OF THE CITIZENS. Not just the black citizens. "</p>
<p>Wow…</p>
<p>Barney; make sure you keep pulling sentences out of context. I don’t want you to miss the point you’re trying to make. My point is that I know that the Trinity church has their agenda and priorities. That’s OK. Nothing wrong with that. So does every church, company, and private individual. The president however is NOT a private individual. S/He is MY EMPLOYEE. S/He is YOUR EMPLOYEE. S/He is EVERYONE’S EMPLOYEE S/He is not allowed to have an agenda or priority that isn’t for the good of the entire country. We know more about Wright and the Trinity church than we know about Obama. He needs to convince me/us that he has what it takes to make our country as a whole better.</p>
<p>Now; there are some out there that believe that he has indeed convinced them as far as they need in what his goals and priorities are. That he has satisfactorily explained his position on the nation’s issues. That’s fine; I respect that. You should definitely vote for him then. I am not arguing that. All I’m asking is that you don’t argue and say I am wrong because he hasn’t explained those things to a satisfactorily level for me yet. That’s all.</p>
<p>Christcorp, for someone who thinks that the President is not that powerful in this country, you are getting pretty worked up about a candidate for the Presidency. On these forums you keep reminding us that the President only signs legislation and it is Congress that makes all the laws, right? So what does it matter if Obama becomes President?</p>