<p>There has been a proliferation of “AP lite” courses in recent years. These typically emulate one semester introductory college courses that are not generally difficult (e.g. psychology, statistics) or even subjects that many colleges do not have courses for (e.g. human geography). In the AP forum here, just look for the “easy to self-study AP tests” threads to get an idea of what the “AP lite” tests are. Granted, some of them may be good as high school courses, but that is getting away from what AP was originally meant to be.</p>
<p>In some other subjects, there has been a trend away from more difficult AP tests and courses. The more difficult CS AB test is no longer offered, and physics B (not considered all that difficult to begin with, as some high schools use that syllabus for their honors physics course) is being split into physics 1 and 2, encouraging high schools to teach it over two years instead of one.</p>
<p>So it is likely easier to take and pass a lot of AP tests now when there are AP tests in psychology, statistics, human geography, etc. than when there may have just been calculus BC, English literature, and a few foreign language AP courses and tests offered in high school.</p>
<p>You obviously spend a lot more time pondering high school academics than I do! I’m glad that my kids have the opportunity to take these AP courses. They may not be true college-level classes, but they are far more taxing than honors classes. My D is working her rear off trying to maintain a high B in AP Euro and AP Calc. There is also no question in my mind that AP Lang and AP Lit contributed to her considerable writing talent. Having said that, AP Psych is a bit of a joke…</p>
<p>What are you talking about? Our American kids are super achievers - they just have this weird mental block when it comes to those meaningless standardized tests. As to the dropout rate, all we need is to drastically increase the education spending. I know, I know, we lead the world in spending per student-hour. I am sure if we increase this number by 10x, the dropout rate can be resolved (if not, we will just have to increase by 100x).</p>
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<p>C’mon man, APs availability is important for the ranking. How am I able to proudly tell my sister-in-law that our high school is much better than hers (#1346 .vs. #1389).</p>
<p>I don’t think that preference among best teachers is just within US public K-12 schools or just an American phenomenon.</p>
<p>For instance, I’ve heard many accounts from older pre-'69 era alums and faculty from CCNY and CUNY who recounted top Profs leaving for academically elite colleges…especially private ones after the institution of open admission in 1969 because they felt they didn’t sign up to have classmates/teach a massive influx of woefully un/underprepared classmates who needed massive remediation. Especially during a period when there was an increasing crime rate…some of which were perpetuated by those very un/underprepared classmates. </p>
<p>In many foreign education systems I know of, the best teachers tend to prefer teaching students who are academically high achieving and/or otherwise “easy to teach”. That’s reflected in the social-status/regard such teachers are given in their respective societies.</p>
<p>I would be perfectly happy without AP classes in HS (I’m really disturbed by the amount of money the College Board takes in for what should be “for the good of the country” education items and they should make enough to live on but shouldn’t be able to take baths in swimming pools full of cash). </p>
<p>The problem is that, at least in my kids’ high school, the difference between a “regular” class and honors and/or AP classes was ridiculous. My D tried to take a regular US history class her junior year because the AP World History class sophomore year killed her with busy work. Her first day in the regular class her teacher passed out a map of the US and gave the students 5 minutes to fill in all the states. My D was the only one left writing when time was up and she had about three states left to fill in. The teacher then said by the end of the year, the students would be able to complete the map (my daughter learned that in 5th grade). The second day, the teacher gave them a worksheet asking them to answer questions about their political preferences which showed them where they fell on the political spectrum. Then she made the kids state where they fell. My D didn’t think that was the teacher’s or other students’ business. The third day they watched a movie and after class my D transferred into the AP US History class which turned out to be one of her favorite classes.</p>
<p>This is a really thorny issue. Recently, this issue of “school within a school” caused a big stink at our local high school. Some educators (well meaning, I am sure) wanted to require all our kids to pass Algebra II. However, the whole math department (equally well meaning, I am sure) revolted at this. The department claimed that, based on years of teaching experience, not all kids can hack it in Algebra II - unless the department severely watered down the course, many kids would fail. It got pretty ugly.</p>
<p>I can definitely see the reasoning behind each side’s position. I understand that great disparity in academic attainment between students is not a good thing and I really believe this is a major contribution to our wealth inequality in this country. However, I personally have seen that the ability of kids can be vastly different. Many of my daughter’s friends are taking MV Calculus in the senior year. I have seen their tests. If my recollection is correct, I do not think their tests are less hard than those I have taken in my college (and I went to a pretty prestigious engineering program). On the other hand, my daughter has a cousin and an out-of-state friend who went to CC. They had to take some remedial math and the Algebra textbook they used was the one my daughter used in her 8th grade (and they did struggle through these classes).</p>
<p>Our top students can compete with any kids in the world. Unfortunately, our “average” and “below-average” students are so much worse than other countries’.</p>
<p>Our resource is finite and I certainly do not pretend to know how to balance the needs of all the various learners that we have.</p>
<p>Our school system has succumbed to the Lake Woebegon philosophy. First, caving in to parental pressure (no doubt fed by the “you must take the most challenging courses offered” college admissions mantra) to place too many kids in “honors” level classes. Next step, the schools and teachers cave in to parental pressure to lower grading standards–we can’t stress our (underqualified) students with honest grading systems, so let’s offer lots of extra credit, group tests, corrected test regrades, grades curved up, easy A’s. I view the AP system as at least some protection of the quality of the program–at least there is a reasonably-well defined curriculum that can’t be watered down without people noticing (AP scores will drop), and an external measure, no matter how imperfect, of what student achievement is.</p>
<p>@furrydog, all our hs students must pass algebra2 (except for those receiving a special diploma for kids with disabilities). And I’m sure they do–after all, our “below-average” students are above average…</p>
<p>Sure, but they do not necessarily come on TOP when compared with similar students. When applying the usual NEA controls, it appears that our top students beat the … average students in other parts of the world. </p>
<p>A few years ago, John Stossel ran a series and sent a copy of the SAT to a school in Belgium. He then had a top school in New Jersey take the same test. The foreign kid ran circles around ours, and derided the poor results of the NJ kids – and they were no Guido and Guidettes. To add insult to injury, it turned out to be that the school selected in Belgium was none other than a school that prepared students for an athletic career. And it is good to remember that the test was in English, which is the third language in that country! </p>
<p>Where our country beats all others is in its ability to find excuse for poor performance. We won’t be able to address and correct the problems until we admit that they exist.</p>
<p>Our school system (large urban/suburban) allows any student to sign up for an AP class.
To make them more accessible, the school system pays for the AP tests.<br>
The kids were told if they did not take the AP tests, their final grade for the class would be dropped by one letter grade. </p>
<p>At our school Honors classes get one extra point in gpa calculation and AP classes get two extra points. More kids take AP’s because they don’t have much to lose. Even if they make a C in the AP class, it’s as good as a A in a regular class for gpa purposes.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, my experience is totally anecdotal.
All I know is that best of my daughter’s friend can run with any of those “big dogs” from top Asian countries such as Singapore, Japan, Taiwan (I have friends and relatives in that part of the world). Many of these “big dogs” are going to National Taiwan U, U of Singapore, Cambridge, Oxford, etc (prestige seeking is not particularly American :o) ). From what I have seen (of course, very subjective), their “accomplishments” are no more impressive compared to the best of my kid’s friends.</p>
<p>I find the opposite in my kids school. AP classes have hardly any work and hardly any grades other than the tests/essays. Kids who need homework and participation grades to boost their overall course grade do not do well in AP classes at my kids school.</p>
<p>Keep in mind that if the accomplishments you’re examining include ECs that in those top Asian countries, ECs tend to be non-factors for college admissions unless it’s academically related…such as medalling at an international mathematics competition against top mathematics students in the world which earned one student from a documentary automatic admission into the Tsinghua University’s Math department without having to take the exam. </p>
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<p>And this isn’t necessarily a bad thing considering this is much closer to how most regular non-remedial college classes are structured…especially at the Top 50 colleges/universities. </p>
<p>If anything, providing too much busywork…especially daily homework assignments IMO may actually impair a college-bound student’s ability to learn how to pace him/herself for undergrad classes where assignments may be due in larger complex chunks only every few days, week, or even half/one full semester*.</p>
<p>*I.e. Intermediate/advanced colloquium/seminar classes where 1-2 15-30+ papers determine as much as 80%+ of your final grade.</p>
<p>I don’t mind as long as the high schools require all students to take the AP branded exam with provisions for those that cannot afford. Otherwise AP classes simply become pay for education or school within a school as mentioned within a public school system. If you have teachers that can teach a rigorous course with the AP brand, you have teachers that can teach a rigorous without the branded endorsement and its ensuing costs. If you want the brand, my thinking is you buy the brand including the “final exam.” If you aren’t going to require the exam lose the AP designation and teach the course using the teacher’s exam…for “free.”</p>
<p>Only one early post commented on the huge problem presented in the article. Instead of rationing AP courses by competing academically for them this school held a lottery- all were eligible but top students did not get in due to lack of space. THAT’s outrageous. Some schools limit AP courses based on grade in HS et al, that is bad as well but not as bad as denying the best students the most rigorous courses because of a lottery system.</p>
<p>One of the sad parts of the whole AP expansion is that some of the “AP lites” might be decent and useful high school level courses (e.g. statistics, human geography), but high schools seem to have no willingness to offer such courses at a reasonable level of rigor in the absence of an AP label. Most public and private high schools are not elite ones that would offer rigorous courses on their own without some benchmark like AP to aim for. Many of them also offer AP courses poorly, resulting in their A students getting 1 scores on the AP tests. Only a few elite high schools have courses more rigorous or advanced than AP courses today.</p>
<p>It is also common mantra around here that a student should take the AP course in the subject before taking the SAT subject test in the subject, even though the SAT subject test is supposed to cover normal high school level material, not AP level material. The implication is that normal high school courses are generally distrusted in terms of how well they cover the subject material in more “core” type of subjects (e.g. US history, chemistry, physics, English literature, etc.).</p>
<p>You must be commenting on my post #4. Agree – if access to AP courses is to be open to all, there must be space in the courses for all of the students.</p>
<p>Perhaps they went to a lottery to avoid issues with favoritism or undesired discrimination that may exist when rationing the courses by academic-related factors (e.g. by teacher’s recommendation). But they really should open more AP courses for all of the students who want them – and if they do not think that all who want them are academically able to handle them, they should have a more transparent method of using academic factors to determine entry that is less prone to the problems that they are trying to avoid.</p>
<p>A more transparent academic selection criteria could be something as simple as a B or higher in the honors prerequisite or an A in the non-honors prerequisite as entry gate for the AP course. If the course has no prerequisites, perhaps honors-weighted GPA in previously taken related courses can be used (e.g. honors-weighted GPA in previous history and social studies courses can be the gate for an AP history or social studies course).</p>
<p>I don’t think it’s a bad thing at all. It transfers responsibility for learning to the student which is really what makes a class college level. The difference between Honors Calculus and AP Calculus is not the content, it is the way the class is taught. After all Calculus is Calculus.</p>