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<p>This happens in our high school, and we do not open AP to everyone. Public high schools have limited budgets, teachers and hours/classes in the day. If 39 qualify for an AP course, but the teacher union limits classes size to 35, then 4 don’t get to take the AP, and the budget doesn’t allow another class to be added. I don’t know how it is determined which 4 are out (I think it is all done by computer scheduling), but it happens.</p>
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<p>In many colleges, there are easier calculus courses for business majors, compared to the calculus courses for math and engineering majors. Presumably, the high schools’ offerings of non-AP calculus courses are similar in concept, but even easier, since they are presumably easier than the slower-paced AP calculus AB.</p>
<p>But does offering such a course in high school even make sense? Surely, a high school student good enough at math to be on the advanced math track can handle AP calculus AB, right?</p>
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<p>My middle son is taking Honors Calculus this year. There is significantly more instruction, practice, and guidance in Honors Calculus than there was in the AP Calculus class that my older son took. Their school offers both AB and BC Calculus as AP classes as well as Honors Calculus.</p>
<p>Proudpatriot - At your kids’ school if a student took honors calc as a junior would he/she take AP Calc AB/BC as a senior?</p>
<p>My kids’ school doesn’t offer honors calc. Students take AP Calc AB/BC or no calc. Also, it isn’t common for students to take an honors class one year and then take the AP class in that subject the following year (except for honors English in 9th and 10th grades because they can’t take AP English in those grades). For science the students take a different type of science each year and there are different levels: regular or AP and occassionally there is an honors science class (I think biology and chem are the only ones available in honors).</p>
<p>AP courses are the closest we can get to college rigor in high school. It is not the best idea at all to keep kids who want and can handle the challenge from getting into AP’s because of a lottery. It would also be nice if students who could not pass the academic effort could get in to try to challenge themselves. Courses can’t be slowed for them however.</p>
<p>In the smaller, not elite, public schools, APs are really a necessity for above-average students. Take my high school for example-it is a very non-elite public school, compiled of two small towns who had to form a district together, because they were too small/did not have enough funding. The whole district is not even close to partially challenging for some students. I haven’t actually had any AP courses yet, but my brother has. Also, this district really needs something challenging. The middle school’s Algebra I class isn’t even as good as the high school’s (In 7th grade math is split into Common Core and Pre Algebra, in 8th grade it is split into Pre Algebra and Algebra. It isn’t challenging at all.) </p>
<p>Elementary schools aren’t challenging, which makes middle schools not challenging, and high schools can’t really prepare students for college from there. College IS somewhat different, and AP classes are really necessary to help prepare kids. They help at least somewhat. Maybe better schools can use different programs for their kids that colleges also approve?</p>
<p>Most colleges accept AP exams and courses for credit, but some like Harvard and Dartmouth don’t.([AP</a>, IB, A-Level, & Transfer Credits & Placement](<a href=“Apply to Dartmouth | Dartmouth Admissions”>Apply to Dartmouth | Dartmouth Admissions) and [Harvard</a> College Admissions § Applying: Transfer Program](<a href=“http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/transfer/transfer_credit.html]Harvard”>http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/transfer/transfer_credit.html))
They apparently don’t like the quality of high school AP courses/exams. Perhaps the colleges and high schools could cooperate to make an exam that they all agree over, and those standards could become national?</p>
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<p>When I went to high school, the only calculus course offered followed the AP calculus BC syllabus (and did it well enough that A students in the course got 5 scores on the AP test).</p>
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<p>It was also the case that students took AP calculus after usually taking honors math courses in previous years (geometry honors, algebra 2 honors, precalculus honors). It was similar in English – seniors took AP English literature after usually taking honors English courses the previous years. AP Spanish and AP French were just the level 4 honors courses. I.e. AP was just the top level of the honors track courses (some students did move from regular to honors after doing well in regular courses).</p>
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<p>Curricular difference in the frosh-level courses at various colleges make it rather difficult to have a definition of some frosh-level course that is identical at all colleges. For many AP tests, the AP syllabus tries to target a broad middle ground for the frosh-level college courses they try to emulate, but there will often be differences along the margins at many colleges, and more significant differences at some colleges.</p>
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<p>They could do it that way but most of the students in my son’s Honors Calc class are seniors. Some of the advanced kids take Honors Calc in 11th and then BC Calc in 12th. They don’t usually take AB if they have taken Honors because the classes are similar in content, although the Honors class is structured more like a HS class. Many of the kids who are advanced in math but not in love with it take Honors Calc in 11th and then Honors or AP Statistics 12th grade.</p>
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<p>It depends on the class. In Social Studies they take AP, Honors or College Prep each year. The content offered is the same, but the level of the class varies. </p>
<p>In English AP is offered in 11/12 grade only. In earlier grades it is Honors or College Prep.</p>
<p>For science students have to take Honors or College Prep Bio or Chem before they are allowed to take the AP classes in those subjects. In Physics they can go directly to AP Physics without the basic class but they have to be in the right math class to take AP Physics. Students can also take AP Environmental Science or Honors Marine Biology or Honors Organic Chem. There are some other non Honors level science courses but I am not as familiar with them.</p>
<p>AP Foreign Language(Spanish, French, Chinese) is offered after 4 years of HS study unless the student is a native speaker. We have lots of Spanish speakers who take AP Spanish freshman year.</p>
<p>The arts classes depend entirely on the student’s background. For instance, my son would have been permitted to take AP Music Theory without the basic class because he has had lots of theory outside of class. Placement for those classes is by teacher recommendation.</p>
<p>Students in AP classes must take the exam if they want to get the AP weighting.</p>
<p>What my school does is that if you get a C or higher in the previous class (like Precalculus), then they will recommend you for the next level/AP class, assuming you want to take it. Honestly, if you are planning to go to college anyways, taking an AP class will help you prepare for post-secondary. There’s no reason why you shouldn’t get that experience if you wanted to.</p>
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<p>This is what I don’t get. A student gets a mediocre grade in a course and so is moved up to a higher level of challenge for the next one in the sequence? Am I misinterpreting? Otherwise it seems a recipe for watered down APs and a whole lot of 1s and 2s.</p>
<p>A C grade in precalculus is supposed to indicate a passing performance and that the student is ready for the next course in sequence, i.e. calculus. AP calculus AB is probably a suitable high school course for someone not ready for BC, since AB is slower paced compared to a college calculus course. If the student in question goes to college without taking calculus in high school, s/he will have to take calculus at full speed (BC pace), although s/he may have the option of an easier “calculus for business majors”.</p>
<p>There doesn’t seem to be any mention in any of the articles I see on how much The College Board is making on all of these additional tests being taken! They are loving this “let everyone into AP classes” mentality all the way to the bank!</p>
<p>Our “let’s be warm and fuzzy” era of high schools not wanting to tell any student that they don’t have the aptitude for certain levels of coursework in certain subjects is why our kids are going to get slaughtered in the global job market.</p>
<p>High schools are putting anybody and everybody in AP classes just to be able to boast how many kids are taking AP classes at their school. They need to be required to post how many students in each class are scoring 4 or above. As anyone who truly understands the admissions processes at the “anywhere near selective” and above colleges knows, you are almost better off not even reporting an AP score of “3” or below.</p>
<p>The other thing that is getting lost in all of this is that the schools, in their quest to get their AP counts up, are watering down the AP classes. The teachers don’t have any choice–once the “open the floodgates” policy of admission to AP classes is adopted, they have to water things down just to keep the kids who should be no where near an AP class from failing!</p>
<p>This mentality of let’s put everyone into an AP class is the most mindless direction we could ever take our high schools. Our global competition is loving our fear of telling a student they suck at something and should seek a different direction. The only party truly benefiting from this direction is The College Board. If they are traded publicly, buy their stock now!</p>
<p>It kills me to see high school students on the “chance me” threads with C’s in their sophomore regular or honors classes, then AP classes in their junior and senior years, after which they score 2’s and 3’s on their AP tests. I wonder who’s advising them.</p>
<p>Both of my kids went to schools which send most of their graduates to college, many to the top colleges in the country.
The private prep school did not offer any AP courses, and yet still grads are able to excel in their studies and go on to amazing careers.</p>
<p>The public magnet school did offer AP courses, but the most rigourous course, IMO, was one my daughter took as a sophomore and that was designed by the teachers. Students who take this course and who go on to the state flagship university, can recieve departmental credit for it. My daughter of course didnt want to go to the flagship. 
Her school has a very strong faculty and while the district is determined to lower the bar for all schools so that they can argue that more students are meeting standards, she graduated before that had completely taken effect.</p>
<p>Neither high school weighted grades. The prep school did not rank, and had no val/sal. The public school did rank, and everyone who had a straight A average from 9-12 gd, was a val.
Neither kid had any trouble getting accepted to all their choices.</p>
<p>AP or IB is an easy way for schools to offer " advanced" courses and make parents happy, you can always hire another teacher to teach an additional section, so I dont understand the schools who do it by lottery. Many students in our area also take running start classes, some take so many community college courses, that they graduate high school, then enter as a jr at the university in the fall. </p>
<p>Thankfully, our financial pressures were not so heavy that we needed our kids to do that, and they were able to keep their high school lives and collegs years seperate.
Honors & AP courses were taken not to insure college acceptance but because they were the most appropriate courses available at the time.</p>
<p>Strong and experienced teachers can develop curriculum that is equal/ better than AP. But with emphasis on online learning, increasing class size and reducing budgets, in public schools ( few private prep schools offer AP courses) i don’t see the trend reversing anytime soon.</p>
<p>My sons went to a high school rated in the top 3 of their state and in the top 100 or so on the national high school ratings (the one based on AP ratings). There are 7-800 kids in the high school, and about 85% take AP classes–and do very well on the AP exams.</p>
<p>The high school pays for all AP exams, so that takes financial pressure off the families. While AP classes garner an extra point on GPA (A=5.0), a student who does not take the AP exam does not get the extra point. </p>
<p>The classes are hard and are designed to resemble the college experience. There is a lot of work, but for the most part, not busy work. For example, in APUSH, the teacher uses a lot of old exams. He would assign old test essays as homework. When students do a DBQ, he would critique it, and have them do rewrites, so they actually really do learn how to do one and do one well. They didn’t just use the text book–they did a lot of supplementary reading as well, and class discussion was always very spirited.</p>
<p>It was not unusual for a student fighting for a B in his class to get a 5.</p>
<p>I don’t see AP classes going away anytime soon in CA, as they help your chances of getting into UCs, earn you college credit so you can graduate on time at CA public colleges, and even allow many students to graduate from college early, saving thousands of dollars. It is understandble why more and more students and their parents want them open to everyone.</p>
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<p>The problem is, at non-elite high schools, the downward pressure is likely much greater than the upward pressure on curriculum quality, in the absence of external motivating factors like AP labeling. The result is that AP courses tend to be the most rigorous and advanced courses at non-elite high schools, and tend to be a motivating factor for non-elite high schools to upgrade the curriculum quality in the subject (or even offer the subject in the first place). Yes, it is “mission creep” for AP, not desirable in itself, but not surprising given the state of non-elite high schools.</p>
<p>Agree with ucbalumnus that the AP program is considered the standard of excellence at most schools. It’s nice to think that schools might design equivalent or better classes, but I doubt that happens at most schools. </p>
<p>In our school, we used to have the old CS AB class. When the college board discontinued administering that test, in favor of the watered down CS A test, our school immediately dropped CS AB and now offers only CS A. The teacher is still there. The quality of the students hasn’t changed–my daughter would have liked to enroll in AB. But the school isn’t offering that opportunity any more. All they need for their stats and status is to teach students to succeed on CS A. Why do more, there isn’t an AP test for it.</p>
<p>I agree that it is unlikely that many districts give schools & teachers the support they need to develop curriculum for students to excel.
Just in the last 7 or 8 years, out district had closed schools & canceled classes & programs that were perceived as " elitist", even though everyone was given the opportunity to participate & the support they needed to do so.
The opportunity to take AP Euro as a soph for instance at one school, has been replaced by * the requirement* that all sophomores take AP geography instead, not really the same thing.</p>
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<p>It’s not only in your area, it also happened in NYC as illustrated by CCNY/CUNY’s implementation of open admission after 1969* and Mayor Lindsay’s attempts to effectively eliminate public magnet high schools like the one I attended until a loud outcry from alums, parents, and state legislators prompted the passage of the Hecht-Calandra Act in the early '70s which thankfully stopped such efforts cold. </p>
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<li>Open admission was reduced by the '80s and eventually eliminated by the late '90s when all remedial instruction was delegated to the system’s 2-year community colleges. This prompts some local educational activists to brand the requirement for a semblance of academic standards to be “too elitist”.</li>
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