More trouble at Harvard?

That doesn’t mean the proposal is sound or will ever be seriously considered, much less implemented.

The fact that these kind of things are being proposed in the first place suggests something has gone wrong - of course it doesn’t mean that those proposals will ever be implemented but the fact that they’re being proposed in the first place suggests there’s something that universities are doing that leads a major political party and therefore a significant percentage of Americans to feel alienated with them.

Why on earth are politicians even proposing it in the first place if things were going well?

It has many causes and while the level of antisemitism is a major reason I’m sure, it’s not the only one. You’d think higher education would be a non-partisan topic surely…

The whole reason Harvard is embroiled in this scandal is because the sector has alienated people - if universities were beloved, I very much doubt this whole thing would have happened. This is me being cynical but I’m skeptical that even Claudine Gay would have been fired in that case.

And there was an endowment tax (widely protested by universities) that was implemented - actual implementation, not a proposal. That’s a big change from policy 30 years ago - alienation takes time, it’s a grind, not an immediate loss.

You might have taken the quote “same standard” out of context. What @roycroftmom said was “same standard of integrity”:

Are you saying these women shouldn’t be held to the “same standard of integrity” as others who stepped down after being caught?

As for them being targeted, I agree with you. That doesn’t make academic plagiarism alright, though. You wouldn’t teach your children that, would you?

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Roland Fryer was. By Claudine Gay.

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Not mine, and we are a Harvard family.

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Didn’t take anything out of context. These are partisan hacks trying to change policy by ruining peoples lives. I don’t think anyone should resign, and I don’t understand why anyone would play along. To suggest that it is their integrity at issue – as opposed to the integrity of those playing along – is a bit much.

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If repeatedly copying work without proper citation isn’t an integrity issue, Harvard has no business prosecuting students for it. Can’t have it both ways.

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Again, the with the pretense of treating people equally when we have nothing of the sort. If Harvard only targeted students of certain races and/or political persuasions for supposed plagiarism, then you’d have a parallel. But that’s not the case This is drummed up outrage by those will support anything if it strikes a blow against DEI. Posts in this thread are Exhibit A.

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We have students suspended for such actions, per the honor council there. We have her similar actions. End of story.
If you can find others who are guilty of similar actions at Harvard, regardless of ethnicities, by all means, report it.
Your unwillingness to do so is Exhibit B.

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Whenever anyone says “end of story” it usually means they want to ignore the real story. The real story was expressed well early in the thread . . .

Sorry, no interest in digging up graves to score petty partisan victories. Especially not in the name of “ethics.”

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Or of those who ignore ethical lapses…
No, I don’t excuse ethical lapses or the staggering hypocrisy of schools proseuting teenagers for acts undertaken by middle aged leaders. We can agree to disagree.

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Harvard just needs to do a better job of vetting their administrators. I would think they would not have a problem finding a replacement with higher ethical standards?

Better yet they should be open to concerns raised by their big donors who are quickly closing their checkbooks.

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Well, gee. They’re going after a Black woman who’s part of the DEI staff. I think I’m going to have a heart attack and die of not surprise.

Let’s say the answer is she was targeted.

For argument’s sake.

Does that mean what was uncovered should be ignored?

You wouldn’t argue against the punishment of a former President who was discovered to have committed criminal acts but who was only really investigated because he had been president, would you (purely a hypothetical here)?

The same logic applies here. I would argue both should be ‘punished’ according to what anyone else who had committed the same acts would be punished even if they were ‘targeted’.

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Right. As far as I can tell, the “standard” in academia has always been that plagiarism is not ok. Really, I’m just surprised that it took this long to find it. How was it published? How, in this day and age, have all research papers not been put through some sort of scanner?

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I am going to bring up Claudine Gay briefly, not to rehash that thread, but to provide context as to why I think this situation is different.

I was the first one to say that Claudine Gay should go, because IMO you cannot have a president of the university who is guilty of infractions that would get students at the same university suspended. I consider the president of the university as a public figure, and therefore fair game for reporters looking into their past.

However, I do not consider the head of DEI at Harvard to be a public figure, and therefore I think it is wrong to target her specifically because of her position or race, which is what is being done here.

I would be much more ok with this if Rufo/Free Beacon attacked everyone at Harvard who was involved in plagiarism.

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Hard to say. The Harvard DEI chief is a vice president, an officer of Harvard, per the website. One of 12. The President and Provost surely are considered public figures. The next level down? Maybe all 12 are being investigated.

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She attributed every quotation correctly. She messed up by not putting quotation marks. That is not the same as copying verbatim without a citation.

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I am certain they teach proper use of quotation marks at Exeter, Princeton and Harvard. One transgression I could understand, but dozens? From an academic with a doctorate?

In any event, if any other Ivy president has similar actions we should know about it very soon.

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It looks like I have rambled on. Too much time sitting on an airplane. My apologies.

@worriedmomucb, there is a distinction between the likely original idea and the implementation of DEI. The former is probably well-intentioned, but the latter has been over-reaching at institutions I know and has become philosophically repugnant. More than that, being accused of acting in contravention of the DEI department can be career suicide if people say that you are writing or doing something that makes them uncomfortable. Although some of the conservatives leading the charge at DEI are probably unhappy that blacks, gays and women are represented at all at elite universities, most folks probably recognize that there has been discrimination that would in principle cause members of certain groups to be feel uncomfortable and experience discrimination.

I was a middle-class Jewish kid and feel really fortunate to have attended three of the most elite schools in the country, each of which had in the prior generation had quotas to limit the number of Jews. I recall going to an admitted students party at the health of an upper class WASP alum and not really being sure about the social rituals (I came from a pretty Asperber’s family also). The wood paneling and stone arches of my undergraduate school reeked of WASP aristocracy. I actually went out with a wonderful young woman who was a third-generation legacy and whose mother’s family came over on the Mayflower. The GF was great and so was the Dad. The mother was clearly antisemitic. The school had a rule stating that there was a fine for missing the first day of classes and in two of the four years, the first day of classes coincided with Rosh Hashanah. They did not enforce it, but as a freshman, I actually was concerned I would have to pay a fine. No one had ever thought to check. So, I can empathize with a need for a sense of inclusion and belonging. (Incidentally by the time I got my PhD and was a professor, I no longer experienced any antisemitism. That gold era has unfortunately passed.)

There should be zero discrimination at Harvard or any school based on race, religion, gender, etc. But, equity and inclusion have, in their implementation become problematic. Equity is, in the hands of some DEI admins, equated with equality of outcome – the prima facia evidence for lack of equity is disproportionate outcomes. There is a lawsuit that reached killed the Canadian Supreme court arguing that a math test for elementary school teachers was racist and unconstitutional because blacks failed it a a higher rate. (Fortunately, the Supreme Court killed it, but without addressing the fundamental issue).

And equity sometimes takes on a very different tone. ShawWife is a very talented painter and for years experienced discrimination for being female. To take a few examples, in art school, she was a TA for a famous art school professor who would put his hands inside her shirt and pants even after she objected. She objected and filed a complaint with the school. The helpful soul in HR said, “It’s not personal. That’s just X being X.” Because they would not act, she quit the TA position and could get another TA position and as a non-American did not have a work visa so she supported herself baking bread for the town’s restaurants and selling it under the table, so to speak. Many years later, during the Me Too era, the school was reviewing their files and saw a real formal complaint and called and asked her if she wanted to proceed with a claim against him. In her final year, there was a prize for artistic merit (best student in the school or most promising or something). She was the number one candidate, but her mentor called her from the committee choosing the beneficiaries of honors to say that the committee who agreed she was the best artist that year but were in the process of giving the award to a guy who had a family and not to her, since she was going out with me and I was clearly on a high earning path. I suggested that they give her the award and give the guy the prize, which they did. Later, we were living in NY and a very good gallery that had agreed to take her into their stable of artists dropped her when they saw she was pregnant. Although she shows in good galleries and museums, her career did not advance as far as some similar males whose work is either worse or no better. There was period from the start of Me Too until George Floyd’s death, museums decided to promote women who had clearly experienced discrimination in the arts (remember the Guerilla Girls who used to say that the only way women could get into the major museums was to pose with their clothes off) . With the death of George Floyd, a switch flipped. Several museum directors or curators have told her, in some cases apologetically because they love her work, that they have a backlog of several years where they can only show BIPOC artists – white women need not apply. When we have mentioned it to some of her friends , some (including the mom of the anti-capitalists) say, “Well it is only fair since they were excluded for so long.” Often the work they are showing ranges from truly outstanding to embarrassingly bad – we saw a show of Native American art at the Whitney, I think, which had the full range. There is a need to ensure that good artists (or good students) not be excluded because of their race or sex (or any other category) but the implementation of this policy can be troublesome.

In some cases, immediately increasing the numbers has negative consequences if the change in policy does not include real supports for those who have been selected. I was talking about DEI with my son, who had engineered for his last two undergraduate years to live in a suite of about 10, whom he more or less selected, bridging a couple of friend groups. In this group, there was a gay male, a black male, a gay female, a Blazian woman from a rural HS in the midwest, a trans male, a black female, etc. His school prided it picked underprivileged kids, many of whom were black (unlike Harvard, that for years used to take a high proportion of black kids who’d gone to prep schools, had wealthy parents, or were West Indian). He noted that the underprivileged kids in his crew tended to be not prepared enough in math to take subjects that required a strong math background (I talked to another very bright young woman who also attended his school whose parents emigrated from Venezuela to Houston and attended a weak inner-city HS and wanted to major in physics but when she got to college, she realized she was two years behind in math). Instead, many of these kids ended up majoring in softer subjects (psychology, African-American studies, English, etc.). The school did not help prepare them for the academic challenges but then also did provide coaching or guidance. The kids with upper middle class parents were given guidance about majors, the need to get internships, the need to get the right kind of jobs at school (in the case of my son, at least). And so several of the kids from underprivileged backgrounds in his crew ended up with big debts and taking jobs as public school teachers. A few years ago, they attended coding bootcamps and switched to lower level coding jobs but are at least 10 years behind where they would have been had they taken computer science or data science classes as undergraduates. My son is offended about the lack of support the school gave his less privileged classmates. Anthony Jack has written a very thoughtful book called The Privileged Poor: How Elite Colleges Are Failing Disadvantaged Students, which notes many ways in which colleges don’t provide the support that underprivileged students need.

There are very real problems to address, but first step is to help the aspiring physics major learn the math she needs in HS by improving education for poorer kids or give her a year of preparatory courses between HS and college. She struck me as very bright and is doing well in an alternate academic area, but forcing her away from physics and to a softer area does not solve the problem of discrimination in American society. Instead, many DEI departments see their role as putting a finger on the scale for the poorer, darker, less privileged as they compete with the richer, whiter, more privileged. And then, when protected classes are underrepresented as physics majors, the DEI folks define the problem either as discrimination by the physics department or Eurocentric standards. I kid you not, there is a whole set of academic papers on decolonizing mathematics (although a small number of these are not nearly as stupid as I might have guessed) some of which assert that math is racist.

In general, I think the implementation of DEI can often be pretty repugnant even though the original intent had good motives.

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There are better schools to send my kids than Harvard, in my humble opinion.

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Yes, but many of schools will have their own version of an overreaching DEI apparatus/culture that stifles free speech and will have both antisemitism and organizational tolerance of antisemetism.

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